GM Ted Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Ted, We think along similar lines. Your list and my list would be the same. I guess we are after the same thing....! All the best, Kip. Hehe, that's good to know. Maybe we'll end up on the same project one day. Cheers Ted 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_Hawk Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Aka Hawk, You have broken your own cover... . ... Heh, yeah well I've never made any secrets of it. Good luck on your campaign! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I have been on 5 attempts at MCs, when they work they are the most fun you can have playing wargames..when they don't they usually drag then die. Out of those 5 attempts we had two that actually worked. One was Bears vs Tigers, set on the Eastern front at the Bde level. B vs T used a complex ruleset to determine the upper layer (operational) and CMBB for the tactical engagements. This game worked well until the GM simply got overloaded and then it caved. The GM btw is usually the weak link in the chain as they 1) underestimate the workload or 2) simply get caught up in real life stuff. Always go for a team of GMs (probably 3). By far the biggest success I experienced was CMOC'43 or "Combat Mission Operational Campaign '43". Set in Sicily it was again at the Bde level (about as big as I could recommend for an MC) it was a replay of Operation Fustian and the attempted capture of Primosole Bridge. For the upper layer this time we used a Panther Games title "Airborne Assault; Highway to the Reich" which worked very well at resolving the operational outcomes, without a lot of rules beyond what was in-game already. We did have to add logistics and some arty/air stuff but basically when two forces bumped we knew when and where they did. We used CMAK for the CM gameplay. Then the hard part..map creation. There was (and still is) no easy way to build maps in CM beyond rolling up the sleeves and doing it by hand...a big job for the GMs. The second biggest job was post CM-game management. Determining/tracking losses etc. here we had to do some abstraction just to keep it manageable but we did pretty well all things considered. CM:Campaigns would have been nice but I think the developers also got caught on just how big this can get. CMOC'43 burned out one GM and then the second managed it until the 4th quarter when his computer died (this was back a few yrs before internet warehousing and USB hard drives). All in all though, when CMOC was working it made for some intense and outstanding play. I would sign on for a CMBN MC with a few reservations: 1. Keep it small. No bigger than a Bde op. I was the CinC for Op Nemisis and I can tell you I had a bad feeling about the scope and scale of that monster with only one GM (even though sdp put in a phenominal amount of work into it). To this day I am convinced it was the massive scale that killed it. 2. Have a robust GM team. One head GM, two GMs for each side and some map makers would help. 3. Get another game to do operational level computing. In reality GMs only need copies as players can plot orders on jpg maps. But this really simplifies things. DO NOT try and develop one from scratch, I have seen two MCs fall flat on their faces when some computer savy fella tries to build "CM Campaigns" (note there are a few notable exceptions out there but this point is aimed at newbies). There are a lot of good operational wargames out there. You are going to have to develop some rules but the more the other game is already doing the less you have to worry about. 4. Players need to be committed. In these thing I have seen a lot of people jump on board without any idea of just how long one of these campaigns last. Plan on 12-18 months at least, that is a long time to dedicate to a hobby. Real life will happen but I have seen way too many people drop out after a few month cause the instant gratification hasn't kicked in. In short not every gamer has the dedication to stick with one of these. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 CMOC was great Warren.. in that one using CMx1 creating maps was simple. Using the layers in the Airborne Assault mapMaker and the automatic map creator that someone wrote for CMAK (mainly to convert CMBO maps to CMAK) we were able to create battle maps on the fly. That won't be possible in CMBN... so they will have to be hand built for each battle area. I agree, no larger than Brigade level though. The latest game from Panther games, Battles from the Bulge will be a perfect match for any CMBN campaign. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 CMOC was great Warren.. in that one using CMx1 creating maps was simple. Using the layers in the Airborne Assault mapMaker and the automatic map creator that someone wrote for CMAK (mainly to convert CMBO maps to CMAK) we were able to create battle maps on the fly. That won't be possible in CMBN... so they will have to be hand built for each battle area. I agree, no larger than Brigade level though. The latest game from Panther games, Battles from the Bulge will be a perfect match for any CMBN campaign. Hey Bil. When was the last time we met on the outer boards? Frans (that was his name right) did have a lot of auto-generated maps but as I recall we still had to clean them up a lot and fill them out. Then when his head exploded I was doing most by hand. CMBN...heh are you thinking what I am thinking? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Oh I don't know Warren... I seem to remember the actual map creation for Frans was fairly simple... Here are a set of images from that CMOC: From Airborne Assault game: To CMAK: It was the actual setup and maintaining continuity between battles (he was nuts and added craters etc. left over from previous scraps) that took its toll on him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 A few more images of the Airborne Assault map: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Do you still have all that stuff? Did you manage to grab a copy of the ruleset? Those maps bring back memories...damn shame we never were able to finish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 No I don't have a copy of the ruleset.. too bad. I actually grabbed all of these off of the Panther Games BETA forum, from when I was trying to talk Dave into creating an Operational Gaming tool for use with a tactical game (like CM). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Ah well dust in the wind and all that. It was titles "OPCOM rules" in case you run across it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkerT Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Hey Gents. Fantastic to see my labour of love suddenly spring back to view on the net. I still own the CMOC domain and have kept paying for it just in case someday that crazy inspiration to create something like we did for CMOC43 reappears. But man was that hard work keeping that whole thing alive with the specially created Airborne Assault maps i did in photoshop, the AA OOB's I had to create, the executing of every round of play in the airborne assault application, the resolving where battles should play out then creating the CM maps and the OOB's for each battle in CM ... ha, and that crazy spreadsheet I coded for resupply and tracking of every freaking round of every freaking calibre and using that data for each battle ... the website(s) I created, the initial operational orders and situation (extensive historical research to get close to something real) word documents for each side etc., the situational updates for every round written extensively on the CMOC forum etc, etc. I even helped make the CM map creator application better, and then all the stuff I have forgotten. But good times non the less. You two gentlemen was a pleasure to get to know and work with. Jacques and that Israeli guy (Moshe was his name I believe (learned me how to say haver! (Friend)) we lost ... and all the others from all over the world, great set of wargamers for sure. I will be up for participating in something grand for CMBN, I know I will not be able to help myself if CMBN is what we all hope for. And yes, the name is Frans ) And Warren (Chief), I see that you can still hold your own in any discussion on this forum as well, nice that some good things does not change. Let me know if something interesting materializes and I will hop onboard with pleasure. All the best Frans 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Well gents, it all sounds extremely interesting - I was one of those absolutely gutted when CMC was forced to throw in the towel. If a group is getting something along these lines together when CM:BN is up and running, I would like to be borne in mind ( I would even volunteer to assist in some way as I'm a micro-manager at heart - but so long as that wouldn't preclude me from actually playing ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Welcome back Frans! Good to hear from you again. I believe you, Warren, and I might need to chat when this game goes out the door. Perhaps before. Bil 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Has anyone thought to use "The Operational Art of War III" would it work for the operational level and then use another game for the tactical battles? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkerT Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Welcome back Frans! Good to hear from you again. I believe you, Warren, and I might need to chat when this game goes out the door. Perhaps before. Bil Excellent Bil! Colour me mucho interested as well as 'willing and able'. And a resounding thank you to you and the other CMBN Beta Testers, I know your efforts are pivotal in making CMBN all she can be! Your hard work is greatly appreciated. All the best Frans 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Frans, how the hell are you?!! I didn't think there was anyone from the old guard still around. I couldn't believe the work you put into CMOC, then when I took over as GM, I really couldn't believe it. I am still in touch with Chappy, first thing he asks is if we would ever get CMOC back together. I am going to send you a message with my email address on it. Have you got the old ruleset? Bil and I are are already thinking. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlg85 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Glad to see that there are at least potential rumblings of a CMMC or something like it for CMBN. I was a participant in CMMC 1 on the German side (Honestly can't remember what name I went by though) but being a bit younger at the time, struggled to keep up with the commitment it took as a player. I'd really love to sink my teeth into the detail that campaign had, planning with COCAT and whatnot. Only this time playing the battles in CMBN. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkerT Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Frans, how the hell are you?!! <snip> Have you got the old ruleset? Bil and I are are already thinking. Well! Life is grand Entertaining the ladies as best I can (experiencing my second puberty at the age of 42 ... HA!) Actually much more fun and rewarding this time around, and also waiting like every sorry sod on this here fine forum for the grandour that will be CMBN. One bit of bad news though, my youngest fried my stationary PC with hot chocolate a few years back and that one carried the backup from the CMOC website, so basically everything went away with that. I will prowl through some old CD's I think I still have ... hmmm just maybe with some luck ... let me get back on that one. From the discussions here you and Bil sound as vibrant as always, witch is a pleasure to witness. Ahh and good olde Chappy (still wearing shorts with the Canadian flag all over I guess?). Give my best! Frans 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Well! Life is grand Entertaining the ladies as best I can (experiencing my second puberty at the age of 42 ... HA!) Actually much more fun and rewarding this time around, and also waiting like every sorry sod on this here fine forum for the grandour that will be CMBN. One bit of bad news though, my youngest fried my stationary PC with hot chocolate a few years back and that one carried the backup from the CMOC website, so basically everything went away with that. I will prowl through some old CD's I think I still have ... hmmm just maybe with some luck ... let me get back on that one. From the discussions here you and Bil sound as vibrant as always, witch is a pleasure to witness. Ahh and good olde Chappy (still wearing shorts with the Canadian flag all over I guess?). Give my best! Frans Frans, heh well I lost my HD as well and then the laptop I had the backup on. Check your forum private messages. Well I guess we will start from scratch then!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkerT Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Bil and Warren ... HOT DANG! I found it on a dusty old CD ... everything from 16.02.2006 and back ... will try to put the old unfinished website up again just for laughs. MAN! That CD even has all the CMTB stuff we did with Jacques! Ha! Got the framework of that old site up, and you can even use the roster still, (only thing working in this version.) www.cmoc.dk 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD Smack Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 kipanderson I am getting this feeling that you are thinking about starting an MC. Maybe its just me. I do agree that map building is quite difficult and fake or imagined terrain does not quite have the same effect as real terrain. There are of course a few "map gods" out there that are very good at map design. I myself never seem happy with any of the maps I create when not using an actualy map/image. On the other hand I am much more satisfied when building a map off of google earth. Maybe I just suck....who knows. As for the size I think The Capt is right, a BDE is large enough. This allows one to set up a geographical area and begin building maps. Of course the other part of building maps is how large a fight are we talking about? Is it an understrength company? How about an understrength battalion? These would be two quite different sized maps. One possible solution to this would be to make a large map then crop the edges for the engagement. The map maker maybe a little displeased with the lack of including all his map but it would give the GM flexibility as to where the fight would take place and not have the over abundance of terrain to manouver. We are talking about Normandy here not the open desert so a given unit will cover less of the front than in the desert. Another thought would be to map certain "hot" spots within the given mapped area that are likely to be contested. These areas would be taken from maps or photos of the area, where as if a battle developed in an area that was not a "hot" spot then a more generic map could be used. Or you could just employ some one to map the entire area......of course that is probably not even possible (who would sign up for that?) Just a thought. Steve-o 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Steve, On the other hand I am much more satisfied when building a map off of google earth.Agreed, maps made from imagination often seem scaled wrong. When it comes to technique I just copy others as I am not artistic. But scale and what major features to include comes off Google or topographical maps. Also yes.... I agree with both yourself and The Capt that brigade is probably the right size for player manned units. But as you will have seen from my earlier posts I am keen to mix the player manned units with operational level only playing pieces. In fact I imagine a game that is operational first and could be resolved entirely at the operational level. With the players having roles as divisional staff. But in each turn some of the battles being resolved by playing CM. The particularly critical clashes that turn. But with some CM games being player v player, some player v AI and some player v umpire. When it comes to how to play out the operational level Geccos is designed for games such as these and like most things designed for a specific purpose does that job very well. But will investigate using an actual “game” such as the new Bugle game. But I remain a fan of Geccos. Maps are the real time killer.... no doubt about it... All the best, Kip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 anybody have a link for geccos? google has never heard of it... also, regarding maps...I've made a lot of maps, and have never found it necessary to base them on real terrain for a "realistic" feel. Sure, maps on real terrain would be better, but I'd much rather have a decent map that someone else created (and that I can improve if I want) than have to create every map, perfectly, by myself. I probably created about 60 3km x 3km maps (including numerous cities) for a solo CMBB campaign; I eventually (recently) stopped playing it because I didn't have time to create more maps. At the very least we should look at outsourcing map creation to some students in Russia or something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 76mm, hi, At the very least we should look at outsourcing map creation to some students in Russia or something.Crikey...! It may well be a good idea but still makes me smile... . BTW.... I forgot to mention that... yes... I do agree with those who say “scaling...”... map sizes, battle sizes, how to scale down battles that are too big is a major problem. All the options have their weaknesses. All very interesting and fun, All the best, Kip. PS. For Geccos contact “aka Hawk”. He posted earlier.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_Hawk Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 anybody have a link for geccos? google has never heard of it... Heh, that would have surprised me. Link sent in PM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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