G-36 Awesomeness! Takes on BRDM-2's!

[c3k]

Hey, NATO is fun! Whew, now that that's out of the way...

Playing a battle (savegame available), German mech infantry going up against Syrian mech infantry. My overwatch units spotted a BRDM-2 in a compound. Sweet. Right around the corner I have squad with 3 PzF3 rockets. I split off the anti-armor team. (This is where BF.C gets it so right!) I gave a HUNT command with a COVERED ARC towards the BRDM.

The WeGo turn unfolded...

My two men crept around the corner of the tall wall and spotted the blissfully ignorant BRDM. The BRDM was facing right at them, buttoned up, oblivious to their danger! It would be a test of will to see which unit would spot and fire on the other one first!

My anti-tank gunner placed the Panzerfaust3 on his shoulder. Steady, steady... His assistant began firing on the BRDM-2 with his G-36. WTF?? 5.56mm ricochets flew everywhere. The BRDM-2 opened up with its 14.5mm Dshka. The Panzerfaust missed. The antitank gunner got chewed up by 14.5mm slugs. The friggin' assistant ran off into the desert sunset.

Why would a landser think that his G-36 was an appropriate weapon against a BRDM-2? No one was visible. The vehicle was buttoned up. His buddy, the guy he was the ASSISTANT to, you know, the antitank gunner with his antitank weapon lined up and ready to go, was next to him ready for the kill. All for nought.

Is this a hyper-aggressiveness newly created for the Germans? Is it a v1.30 TacAI behavior? Is it a behavior which could be, um, tweaked?

I suggest we NOT have rifles fire on armored vehicles which are about to be blown up. Does this sound good?

(Savegame available.)

Thanks,

Ken

P.S. I _still_ think that NATO is well worth it and v1.30 is very well done.

[Alex]

Not clear, what distance was at PzF3 and BRDM? May be it was critical low?

[c3k]

Good question. I just measured the engagement range. It was 88 meters, frontal aspect.

Reloaded savegame and re-executed turn without changing any orders. Again, the G-36 equipped assistant opened fire first. (Note that there were two BRDM-2's parked next to each other. The Panzerfauster ( new word ) fired on the rightmost BRDM-2, the G-36 equipped rifleman fired on the leftmost BRDM-2. (The rightmost one was not visible to the team in the first run through.) It still doesn't seem right. Their behavior destroys the surprise inherent in the ambush/opening salvo.

Ken

[Alex]

thay use G-36 because hatches is opened I think, and bullets can kill the BRDM crew.

[c3k]

No, the hatches were all closed. No enemy soldiers were visible.

[phil stanbridge]

Hey was that the airport scenario? I'm part way through it if so, and guess what, I've had something similar happen.

Infantry sqaud detect 2 BRDM's - one guy with his G36 takes on a vehicle - I kill one of the crew with a single burst - vehicles reverses slightly, and rolls into the line of sight of my Panzerfaust. I'm guessing it must have been opened up - it was only a single burst that killed the crew man. The other vehicle starts to fire, but the rounds fly over the heads of my guys who are prone and crawling to cover behind a wall. Infantry squad at rear launch a panzerfaust which appears to fly over the wall and takes out the other BRDM Absolutely superb stuff!

[Alex]

Hm... I remember in CMA I had one BRDM2 in one scenario, and when only I opened hatches enemy start shoot in it by small arms.

[c3k]

phil,

Yes, "All Flights Will Be Delayed"; was the BRDM you sighted (no spoilers) OPEN UP? E.g., did you see an enemy crewman? Or is the BRDM-2 able to be perforated by 5.56mm rounds fired by the G-36? If it had exposed crewmembers, that would make sense. Mine did not have any open hatches. If the BRDM-2 is vulnerable to the G-36, well, that would also make sense.

Regards,

Ken

[phil stanbridge]

phil,

Yes, "All Flights Will Be Delayed"; was the BRDM you sighted (no spoilers) OPEN UP? E.g., did you see an enemy crewman? Or is the BRDM-2 able to be perforated by 5.56mm rounds fired by the G-36? If it had exposed crewmembers, that would make sense. Mine did not have any open hatches. If the BRDM-2 is vulnerable to the G-36, well, that would also make sense.

Regards,

Ken

I don't know Ken is the honest truth. I'd like to think he was open up, but I don't think the AI does this - have you ever seen the AI open hatches? Either way, crew member was definitely KIA because of the red cross - the vehicle itself wasn't that far in front of me, but it was literally within the turn of spotting them so it wasn't overly clear. I guess the 5.56 could have penetrated the armour - or got lucky. But like I said, it was one very well aimed burst of fire. And I reckon it was the first bullet too. It does suggest it was 'open-up' hence the shot, but I don't have the save to check.

[akd]

Does the same behavior happen with unarmored vehicles, e.g. UAZs or the new trucks? does it happen with other armored vehicles, e.g. BTRs. Perhaps the game is treating BRDM-2s as soft-skinned. Thy hath the editor. Useth it.

[c3k]

akd,

You have a good point. But, if I stop to use the editor (right now, at least), I fear what will happen to my men! I'm in the midst of assaulting the Aleppo airfield. What? You want me to go back to HQ to test a... THEORY?!?

Good God, man! Stop _thinking_ and get back into the fight!

[Alan8325]

When a BRDM is "unbuttoned" it simply has the armor plates that would go over the front windows in the raised position, exposing the windows and the guys inside. Are you sure they didn't look like this? Perhaps those windows are susceptible to 5.56 penetration. Still seems odd that one would open up with his rifle giving away his position though, when a teammate has a panzerfaust.

[phil stanbridge]

I'm thinking this was a target of opportunity for some dude with a G36. I'm guessing it must have been unbuttoned, otherwise why the hell would he fire his pop gun at that. But as for exposing his position, well, the panzerfaust fired within seconds of the G36, so there wasn't much hope for the vehicle really. (In my case anyway.)

[Wodin]

just think to yourself that you had a rookie gone trigger happy...then you can sit back in the knowledge your still playing a damn fine realistic wargame;)

[c3k]

Thanks for the responses. A little more sleuthing has revealed...

... the armored shutters on the BRDM in question (heretofore to be referred to as BRDMiQ) were positioned closed on right side (commander's windshield) and open on left side (driver's windshield). So, indeed, the driver was visible through the windshield.

The next fact picked up came from a variety of sources, but I'll just post a link from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRDM-2

************

Driver's and commander's stations are in the front of the vehicle, driver is positioned on the left and commander is positioned on the right. Both of them sit in front of the bulletproof windscreens which provide them with primary view of the battlefield. When in combat the windscreens can be additionally protected by twin armoured shutters.

************

This, and other corroborative passages, show that the glass is supposedly bulletproof. Obviously, the term "bulletproof" is subject to quite a lot of technical assessment and interpretation.

So, my pixeltruppen saw the driver and fired at him. The bullets sprayed off the armor around the window. I don't know if any rounds impacted the windshield. The driver was unharmed, to the best of my knowledge, with Elite difficulty setting (he may have been wounded or panicked; he's dead, now.).

I am still miffed that he fired early, but now I understand why. Being the munificent commander that I am (in fact, my troops frequently refer to me as "Ken the Munificent" due to my benevolence when leading them. They know that their deaths pain me more then it does themselves. ), I have therefore decided not to send that assistant gunner on a suicide mission. He is grateful.

As Wodin posted, he was a bit trigger happy.

Yet another doff of the cap to BF.C

Thanks,

Ken (the Munificent)

[Thomm]

All good and well, but should the TacAI really shoot at soldiers protected by bullet-proof glass? Is the bullet-proof glass actually modelled?

Best regards,

Thomm

[Noltyboy]

just had brits do this, except the BRDM then shrugged off on ILAW hit aswell.

[c3k]

I think this is right on a grey area. If your toops SEE an enemy, should they NOT fire because the glass MAY be proof? Or, should they fire, knowing that there should be a morale hit to ANYONE who's the obvious target of rapid small arms fire? Not many would stay in a state of equanimity, perfectly trusting in the glass, while under fire.

Would I PREFER that the assistant antitank gunner had withheld his fire? Absolutely! Do I have ANY idea how to delineate the TacAI's behavior so that in SOME circumstances he should NOT fire, but in others he SHOULD? No, I do not.

Is the bullet-proof glass actually modelled? Only testing will tell...

I think a better FIRE order would be the way to solve this. And yes, I have several threads on that (some dating back a few years), but that's a different kettle of fish.

In the meantime, although the behavior is not what I would want in that exact circumstance, I shudder at the thought of a future situation when my 2 man antitank team is in front of, say, a tank which has the commander up and manning his machinegun. In that case the assistant had better open fire.

In a few days I'll try to test various bullet-proof glass specs.

Ken

[shauny1987]

we need a 'tank hunt' order. They move forward holding fire with infantry weapons and only firing at weapons, the same as hunt except no rifles.

[phil stanbridge]

Can you not set a target arc on your squads so they only fire within a specific area?

[Lethaface]

Yes but the BRDM should be in that sector or the panzerfaust wouldn't be fired. And hence the G-36 can also be fired in that sector

[akd]

Can you not set a target arc on your squads so they only fire within a specific area?

It's possible you could set a short range arc or circle (hold SHIFT) and the Panzerfaust might override the restriction and engage if there is an armored target beyond the cover arc. Of course the riflemen might start firing, too.

[dan/california]

A better way to way to manage AT assets remains rather high on my wish list. A button for AT only, a button to fire once and resume the move order, and an armor only cover arc would go a LONG way.

Trying to guess it out with pauses is just a mortal pita. Fire one missile or main gun round and move your $%^&&&%$$&! is pretty fundamental.

Loving 1.3 and NATO on the overall though....

[Alan8325]

All good and well, but should the TacAI really shoot at soldiers protected by bullet-proof glass? Is the bullet-proof glass actually modelled?

Best regards,

Thomm

What type of 5.56 rounds are used by modern western militaries? Are they armor piercing? I don't know how modern 5.56 AP rounds would stand up to the "bulletproof" glass equipped on 50 year-old BRDMs, or even if any of this is modeled in CMSF.

[Noltyboy]

What type of 5.56 rounds are used by modern western militaries? Are they armor piercing? I don't know how modern 5.56 AP rounds would stand up to the "bulletproof" glass equipped on 50 year-old BRDMs, or even if any of this is modeled in CMSF.

You can get AP in 556 but normal loads would be ball. I.E. lead bullet with copper jacket. Maybe a LMG would have AP rounds loaded in the belt.