I just can't use my snipers or LMG teams effectively!!

[phil stanbridge]

Help!!

I'm really struggling with this. I don't know how to use my sniper teams or machine gun teams effectively?

I tend to use my snipers for recon, as they move more reactively than any other infatry unit, plus being small teams, stand a much better chance of slipping away. But when I use them in their defined role, as snipers, I tend to have very little luck. I either can't find LOS unless I'm on top of the enemy, or their shots are so off target they'll use virtually all of their ammunition before hitting anything (then maybe give themselves away in the process).

I'm playing a superb mission now by Paper Tiger, and I have couple of snipers at hand, but I don't know what to do with them. I've tried placing them on hills, or areas with decent LOS where I know the enemy is and they can't see anything!

Similar problem apply with the machine gun teams - they should have great range, but I can never find anywhere decent enough on the map to make use of them, so I end up holding back.

[Inkompetent]

Snipers generally need time, and need to get to do what they want. Let them crawl into a nice position, then just let them lie there and shoot on their own. Wide fire archs or just a facing order, and have tme pop away. Also, be very mindful of grass and stuff blocking their line of sight.

Machine guns are more tricky since they get a lot of attention once they start firing, but to me the trick generally is to put them where they can't be seen from one angle, but provide good cover at another. A single medium machine gun like a M240 can deny the enemy access to a large area it has good line of sight to. Pretty much move them in after your riflemen, and have them 'take over' their sectors to cover, or to take over the suppression of an engaged enemy, so that your squads can start moving to flank/assault.

Due to the setup time of machine gun teams they should never be the first in, since if they get engaged they can't respond with any kind of decent fire volume. Just a neat way to let 3 men take over a sector previously covered by 13.

[undercovergeek]

left entirely on their own at the top of a building one of my teams over 3 turns dispatched an rpg team and a HQ team - dead now of course after RPG team 2 spotted them - but a fair exchange

[meade95]

Sniper Teams in CMSF can be frustrating - They have lower accuracy than would be suspected / hoped for / realism - But there are probably some balance issues here along with map size issues (as for why). Do snipers even carry silenced weapons in CMSF?

I do believe sniper Teams should be given some type of tweak in terms of concelment (defensive) as well as in terms of spotting capabilities. Silenced weapons Snipers should also be moddled for MOUNT Ops (but I don't believe they are).

They do run out of ammo quick. This is true. Need to load them up, before sending them out.

[phil stanbridge]

left entirely on their own at the top of a building one of my teams over 3 turns dispatched an rpg team and a HQ team - dead now of course after RPG team 2 spotted them - but a fair exchange

I wouldn't call that a 'fair' exchange personally. Actually if I recall, I had some success with my sniper teams in a marines campaign mission. They were high up on top of a roof, but mostly out of harms way. This one team took out an entire squad, RPG team, HQ unit and so on. Must have been about 20 men lying dead or injured in front of me. That was impressive, but that is few and far between.

As for silenced weapons - not sure - I think one Marine sniper team uses silenced rifles but I don't know for sure. But the British snipers in comparison - doesn't seem to be any comparison. They seem next to useless unfortunately. I will try some of the above advice however. I'll stop using them in recon roles, and try and get them high up somewhere.

What sort of effective ranges should I be able to use them with? I know conditions make all the difference.

[sawomi]

I had an elite sniper taking out an unbuttoned TC with an L115A3 in a pbem ('Edge of Darkness'). Distance was a little bit over 600m and the sniper team had been positioned at it's place for over 30min (turns). They also suppress now a squad nearby and have taken out 3-4 men. I had manually targeted the TC when they first spotted him, but they where doing nothing first. I canceled the target-order then again and they started on their own some turns later. Seems you have to give them some time.

But snipers are generally good for discovering enemy units from distance (Javelin-teams also!). So best tip is as told above, put them in good over-watch position and leave them there.

[dan/california]

My favorite trick, playing U.S.army anyway is to give the snipers the Javelins and park them with a map wide view. That way you don't have to slow down and split up squads that are already kind of small. The snipers can then address the appropriate target with the appropriate ordinance.

[phil stanbridge]

My favorite trick, playing U.S.army anyway is to give the snipers the Javelins and park them with a map wide view. That way you don't have to slow down and split up squads that are already kind of small. The snipers can then address the appropriate target with the appropriate ordinance.

That's a nice idea - but is it realistic.....

[Secondbrooks]

As for silenced weapons - not sure - I think one Marine sniper team uses silenced rifles but I don't know for sure. But the British snipers in comparison - doesn't seem to be any comparison. They seem next to useless unfortunately. I will try some of the above advice however. I'll stop using them in recon roles, and try and get them high up somewhere.

If i recall correctly British have just 2 guys in team, opposed to larger amount of men in US Marine or Army teams (not to speak about squads). That has negative effect in their spotting ability. Ofcourse poorer gadgets are also limiting their possibilities to detect something.

In Marine campaign Marine snipers are in elite level... No wonder if some veteran Brit or Army sniper pales in comparsion. Even Syrian snipers gets lethal with higher experience levels.

@dan/california: I agree best thing for them is to get Javelins. I usually like to give as much Javelins to teams/squads which are not expected to move underfire but more likely will remain in behind overwatching. HQ elements, XOs, Snipers, FOs.

And i agree with advice that micromanagement with target orders doesn't work, as it doesn't work with many other units. Let them sort out themselves what they have good changes to hit and they probably waste less ammo with more effect.

[phil stanbridge]

The British have mostly pathetic equipment and small squads. I realised the Marines/US Army had larger Sniper teams, but didn't appreciate they were up a level in experience too. That's just not cricket is it

You would expect an elite unit such as the sniper to have the necessary rating. I wonder why BFC did this. Must be a reason.

[Secondbrooks]

The British have mostly pathetic equipment and small squads. I realised the Marines/US Army had larger Sniper teams, but didn't appreciate they were up a level in experience too. That's just not cricket is it

You would expect an elite unit such as the sniper to have the necessary rating. I wonder why BFC did this. Must be a reason.

First of all: I'm slightly drunk now, more than when i posted my last post in thread. So PLEASE, excuse me if i get your post wrong.

Now. I don't have Brit module, but in Marine campaign they got Elite level for a reason. Representing them to be force-recon or something like that. kind of elite unit with-in Marine branch. Like SAS. I'm sure you know.

Overall: Are snipers overall some sort of elite/exceptional troops/soldiers? I really don't know, i personally am fed up with this modern sniper bravado and how every one are so "sniper this and sniper that and i wanna be sniper too when i grow up". I think Bigduke6 referred in some post long ago into Sniper Mafia and how it liked to bloat importance and achievements of the snipers. Sniper Mafia, which he used, is hilarious term and at same time seemed to nail whole sniper discussion/attitudes into it's proper place. I really can see that attitude in many places. With that attitude i mean that snipers are soooo special and sooo good and sooo should have exceptional training because they are sooooo important. And all.

It's like they are the knights of nowdays who replaced the ww2 fighter pilots, who were knights of their time. Or something... I'm getting more and more drunk.

[Blackcat]

"I wonder why BFC did this. Must be a reason."

Ignorance?

[flamingknives]

Or possibly BFC decided to make sniper teams work just like any other infantry team. This means that if you want an elite sniper team, then you make them elite. Not really rocket science, is it?

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Yeah, pretty sure regular UK soldiers are as high in experience as Marines and US Army. The Marine snipers in the first few missions (at least) of the campaign are supposed to be Recon Marines, which are elite units.

[slug88]

"I wonder why BFC did this. Must be a reason."

Ignorance?

You don't give BFC much credit, do you? To reiterate what has already been said: the unit type is completely independent of the unit's skill/experience. If the scenario designer so chooses, he can give you a Green Marine sniper team that will be outshot by Regular Syrian snipers. Not very realistic, but that's the whole point of the game's built in flexibility. It just happens that the people who designed the Marine campaign chose to give the player Elite snipers, and the people who designed the Brit campaign seemed to favor Veteran snipers.

[meade95]

True, regarding the unit type being completely independent of the units skill/experience. I think a broader point is that even "elite" level snipers at times aren't all that effective. Be it with shooting accuarcy, spotting or ability to stay conceled from view.....(with this said, I never want my comments to be taken out of context or in a manner in which it seems I'm only complaining about CMSF. As that is not my intent or complete thoughts regarding CMSF). In total this SIM is the best out on the market today....

[Dietrich]

Sniper Teams in CMSF can be frustrating - They have lower accuracy than would be suspected / hoped for / realism

I reckon "suspected"/"hoped for" and "realism" are two different things. "Hoped for" would be the proverbial "one shot, one kill". Realism would be... well, there's the rub: "One shot, one kill" is the sniper's archetypal goal, but is that consistently achievable (i.e., excluding outliers like that one Army sniper's first-round kill in Iraq with an M24 at 1600 meters or some such) in real-world tactical conditions? (But to put it in perspective: While playing Birdstrike's fun and challenging "Paradise Road" scenario, my Elite M110-armed sniper scored a first-round kill on the gunner -- or was it the loader? -- of an SPG-9 technical at a range of about 650 meters. Now if only said sniper could spot the über-deadly AT-14s as well....)

Given the not-very-plentiful ammo supply of the typical sniper team, I usually assign close-range cover arcs to my sniper teams while moving them into position and while they keep on the qui vive for targets; that way, they don't prematurely reveal their position and save their ammo for the best targets. When suitably high-value targets present themselves, I lengthen and narrow the sniper team's cover arc so that it encompasses the target I want the sniper to engage. Not infrequently the contact is lost before the sniper gets a clear shot; in that case, retaining the cover arc allows the sniper to open fire when the target re-presents itself.

Does the B team of a US Army combined-arms (MOUT) battalion sniper squad not have a radio? I was playing "Crossing the Rubicon" the other day and had the teams of my split sniper squad positioned far apart, and the B team was out of C2 with battalion (thus preventing the other units in the battalion from getting a <?> contact of a T-62 lurking otherwise unspotted amid the buildings) for more than 10 minutes. In my experience, when an infantry unit loses radio contact, it usually re-establishes such contact much sooner than that.

Do snipers even carry silenced weapons in CMSF?

The US Army has the M110 with attached suppressor; the British army has the L115A3 with attached suppressor. Neither of these are "silenced"; they don't use subsonic ammunition, which, on account of the lesser velocity, lesser range, and lesser terminal ballistics, would make the sniper rifles themselves superfluous. The suppressors do lessen their sound signatures, making them harder to detect and locate. However, I haven't done testing about this particular aspect, so I can't say for sure if their suppressed-ness is modeled in CMSF. One little oddity is that the L115A3 uses the same sound file as the SVD (Dragunov), which is strange, since the SVD has no suppressor.

[meade95]

@ Dietrich - Points taken and thanks for the sniper / suppressor info -

[phil stanbridge]

You don't give BFC much credit, do you? To reiterate what has already been said: the unit type is completely independent of the unit's skill/experience. If the scenario designer so chooses, he can give you a Green Marine sniper team that will be outshot by Regular Syrian snipers. Not very realistic, but that's the whole point of the game's built in flexibility. It just happens that the people who designed the Marine campaign chose to give the player Elite snipers, and the people who designed the Brit campaign seemed to favor Veteran snipers.

Far from it actually. Credit where credit is due, BFC have done a fab job on Shock Force, and I'm always trying to promote their games on the other forums I peruse.

I don't know how these things work out in real life - that was all. I would imagine that British sniper teams go through the similar training as their US counterparts, (without knowing all the details of course) and this would mean they achieve their 'elite' status in much the same way. Are sniper teams classed as 'regular' infantry?

[Field Marshal Blücher]

I would imagine that British sniper teams go through the similar training as their US counterparts, (without knowing all the details of course) and this would mean they achieve their 'elite' status in much the same way. Are sniper teams classed as 'regular' infantry?

It's all up to the scenario designer. You can make those Marine snipers Conscripts if you want, or you can have Elite Syrian reservists.

[phil stanbridge]

It's all up to the scenario designer. You can make those Marine snipers Conscripts if you want, or you can have Elite Syrian reservists.

Yep, I realise that, I was talking about what happens in reality.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Yep, I realise that, I was talking about what happens in reality.

Ah, OK. In reality, I imagine that different snipers within the same service probably have different levels of training. Recon Marines or SAS snipers probably are Elite in game terms, normal battalion scout-sniper teams for the US Marines at least (I know much more about the Marines than I do about any other service ) are probably in the Veteran-Crack range, and I would imagine that most Western snipers are probably somewhere in the Veteran-Elite range depending on exactly what part of the service they're in. So are snipers "regular" infantry? Some of them are, some are not. I imagine if you see a Brit sniper in the game who's a Veteran or so probably IS a "regular," whereas an Elite sniper would probably be a member of some special forces unit.

[flamingknives]

Snipers are probably in the Veteran to Elite range depending on who they are, so you could quite easily have an elite sniper in a regular battalion.

[theFightingSeabee]

Snipers are probably in the Veteran to Elite range depending on who they are, so you could quite easily have an elite sniper in a regular battalion.

I agree with that. No unit is going to hand Gomer Pyle a sniper rifle. Any soldier who gets a sniper rifle will not only be a top-notch soldier for his unit, but will also be well trained. Throw in the fact that the British are among the best soldiers in the world, and you're looking at a Veteran or Elite man.

Syrian snipers are probably the same. Now if you've got an insurgent who's using his daddy's old hunting rifle or something he just picked up off one of his dead buddies, that's different.

[Inkompetent]

That's actually something making the Afghans interesting, since they dusted off their Lee Enfields when they realized they had to engage at quite a distance to stand a chance, the flashy full-auto AKs not doing much good when it comes to actually hitting anything. I'd assume that the ones intentionally using Enfields would be quite some shooters to start with, putting them a couple of notches above the usual soldier in skill.