Debate! Who is familiar with Wiesel Mk20?

[MikeyD]

I'm in the middle of a debate re the German 20mm armed Wiesel Mk20. We're looking at the same stats but disagree what they mean. I've got reference that says Wiesel's KuKa turret can rotate 110 degrees either side. I interpret that phrase as being able to fire to the rear but not being able to complete a full rotation, needing to traverse back the way it came to face front. My learned opponent in the debate thinks it means Wiesel can only traverse 55 degrees in either direction (110 total) and cannot fire to the rear at all.

Wiesel's been around for 19 years. Anyone about who has first-hand knowledge of the thing? I'll even take second-hand knowledge! Me, I'm nothin' but a hobby geek.

[Ryujin]

Some googleing turned up "The weapon can be elevated from -10 to +45° and traversed 55° left and right." http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product943.html .

Nothing on where they got that info though.

[MikeyD]

Yeh, I got a hobby pub here saying 50 degree left and right but like you said, are they reading the same promo sheet as me and interpreting it differently?

[Ryujin]

I took a look at some pictures to see if there are any clues to support 55 degrees to each side.

-There's a radio antenna on the right rear that looks like it would get bent by a 110 degree transverse right.

-Since it seems to use periscope optics for the gun, the gunner would have to rotate with the gun. There seems to be no leg room to either side. It just doesn't seem wide enough for the two man turret crew to rotate 110 degrees with the gun.

So I'd say 55 degrees to either side based on that.

I could be missing something though.

[Michael Emrys]

There seems to be no leg room to either side.

I could be missing something though.

The crew could all be amputees. Admittedly not very likely...

Michael

[moneymaxx]

I found this youtube video (horrible camerawork):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQAzwwlDN5Y&NR=1

The position of the gun at the end of the video looks like 90 degrees to the left, so 110 degrees either side seems plausible.

[MikeyD]

I messed up my math a bit. 110 degrees would be like over your shoulder, not entirely to the rear. Okay, the video does seem to show the turret turning past 90 degrees.

[moneymaxx]

I found this as well, quoting the book "Waffen-Arsenal - Waffenträger Wiesel 1" by Michael Scheibert:

"...nach beiden Seiten ist die Waffenanlage um jeweils 110º schwenkbar."

Roughly translated "the weapon can be traversed 110 degrees to either side".

[bodkin]

I'm in the middle of a debate re the German 20mm armed Wiesel Mk20. We're looking at the same stats but disagree what they mean. I've got reference that says Wiesel's KuKa turret can rotate 110 degrees either side. I interpret that phrase as being able to fire to the rear but not being able to complete a full rotation, needing to traverse back the way it came to face front. My learned opponent in the debate thinks it means Wiesel can only traverse 55 degrees in either direction (110 total) and cannot fire to the rear at all.

Wiesel's been around for 19 years. Anyone about who has first-hand knowledge of the thing? I'll even take second-hand knowledge! Me, I'm nothin' but a hobby geek.

I think you need to get out and meet new people, maybe take up pottery or something.

[hoolaman]

I can only find 110deg left/right. ie total 220deg rotation, which makes sense with the antennae attached at the rear corners.

Anything less would be useless and silly really, 55deg left right is more like the range of a turretless afv like a stug and I don't think Germany has fielded one of those in a while.

[Lt Belenko]

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product943.html

AWC Wiesel 1 with 20 mm cannon (MK 20 A1)

This was built to meet the requirements of the German Army and is fitted with a one-man KUKA turret E6-II-A1 armed with a 20 mm Rheinmetall MK 20 Rh 202 dual-feed cannon with 160 rounds of ready use ammunition, 60 rounds on the left side and 100 rounds on the right side, allowing the gunner to select the type of ammunition required to engage different targets. The weapon can be elevated from -10 to +45° and traversed 55° left and right. Elevation and traverse are manual and the gunner aims the weapon via a Zeiss PERI-Z-16 periscopic sight; a passive night sight is also available. This has two crew consisting of commander/ gunner and driver.

[MikeyD]

I had got my original 110 degree left/right line off a Rhienmetall sales brochure. I'm now coming to think that line was a piece of deliberate obfuscation, trying to mask the vehicle shortcoming's with a badly worded phrase. Like those industry promo photos of M60A1 tanks in the 70s that were deliberately compressed to make the tank appear less tall.

[moneymaxx]

I still think that 110 degree to the left and right is correct. I can hardly believe that someone writes a 50+ pages book about just the wiesel 1 and gets this detail wrong.

This page as well says +/- 110 degrees, 220 degrees combined:

http://www.whq-forum.de/cms/401.0.html

[MikeyD]

Me, I had started convinced of the 110+110=220 degree rotation thing but am slowly becoming less and less so. Nobody around whose cousin's wife's brother served a stint in the German airborne and actually touched the beast?

Hobby web sites often canabalize the same tainted material. People are still quoting bad Sherman info out of Crow & Icks armor references books from 40 years ago!