Bug list?

[Von Fauster]

The patch will be released soon.

See. That's what I'm talking 'bout. Excellent support. It's why I've been a customer for 10 years. (Grabs nearest can of Bud, "I love ya man."). :-)

[Deputy]

See. That's what I'm talking 'bout. Excellent support. It's why I've been a customer for 10 years. (Grabs nearest can of Bud, "I love ya man."). :-)

Hmmmm....I like the fact a patch is coming out. But no word on whether the FPS problem was addressed.

[Von Fauster]

Hmmmm....I like the fact a patch is coming out. But no word on whether the FPS problem was addressed.

I think they get the message Deputy.

[Deputy]

I think they get the message Deputy.

You might have to EAT that horse, pal. Latest word from Sneaksie is FPS was NOT addressed.

Read it and weep. Seems like the developers want everyone to either reduce the graphics to 640x480 with NO eye candy or buy a new ultra high end machine. Only problem is we've already done the lower graphics thing and many people already have ultra high end machines and the problem still exists. Doesn't make me feel very confident when the company takes a "sorry about that sh**" attitude and blames us for a poorly developed sim with obvious problems.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=91662

[Von Fauster]

You might have to EAT that horse, pal. Latest word from Sneaksie is FPS was NOT addressed.

... Doesn't make me feel very confident when the company takes a "sorry about that sh**" attitude and blames us for a poorly developed sim with obvious problems.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=91662

?

Are we on the same forum?

First, not everyone is having an FPS problem. I have a two year old rig that needed a new graphics card anyway (and updated drivers at that). One small update, and no FPS problem at all. Second, the Battlefront folks are the best at what they do and offer some of the best support in the gaming community. Period. If there's really a problem with the game, rest assured, they'll fix it if they can. Third, I understand the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but I think you've made your position and problems very, very well know in this board. Now take a breath and give 'em a chance to work on it. Fourth, isn't there a demo of Kursk available? Did you try that before you purchased the game? Lastly, I'd bet horse meat would make some great jerky, but probably can't compare to donuts, huh.

Peace,

Von Fauster

[Narses]

What are the "Wespe" and "Hummel" doing in this game ?

These are DIVISIONAL arty SP pieces for motorized/pz divisions. They should be off "board" with the other div arty. They have no business being situated forward so as to coming under direct fire.

[Deputy]

?

Are we on the same forum?

First, not everyone is having an FPS problem. I have a two year old rig that needed a new graphics card anyway (and updated drivers at that). One small update, and no FPS problem at all. Second, the Battlefront folks are the best at what they do and offer some of the best support in the gaming community. Period. If there's really a problem with the game, rest assured, they'll fix it if they can. Third, I understand the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but I think you've made your position and problems very, very well know in this board. Now take a breath and give 'em a chance to work on it. Fourth, isn't there a demo of Kursk available? Did you try that before you purchased the game? Lastly, I'd bet horse meat would make some great jerky, but probably can't compare to donuts, huh.

Peace,

Von Fauster

First, visit this link and enlighten yourself:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=91315

Second, people have computers that are super-hot with all the latest, fastest hardware on them (see the above link again) and THEY are having problems with the sim.

Third, since TOW Kursk is so bug ridden with not only FPS problems, but also lockups and CTDs, I have been playing all three of the Combat Mission sims and enjoying them immensely. So I don't need lectures from you or anyone else about Battlefront.

Fourth, the new patch does NOT fix the problems and Sneaksie seems to think the solution is to reduce the graphics to 640X480 levels.

Fifth, it appears the squeaky wheel does NOT get the grease, no matter that a LOT of people are having problems with this sim. Sneaksie has already said the new patch coming help does NOT address the issue. I paid good money for a COMPLETED sim. My comp meets or exceeds the high end specs. So do most others that are also having problems. Telling people to STFU is NOT going to make anyone happy. What WOULD make us happy would be an acknowledgement from the developers or someone in-the-know that there is definitely a problem, the cause of the problem, and that they are working on it. That has NOT been forthcoming.

Sixth, the FPS problem did not appear in the demo. If it did, a lot fewer people would have bought it.

I never liked donuts. I prefer burritos.

[Knaust1]

?

Are we on the same forum?

First, not everyone is having an FPS problem. I have a two year old rig that needed a new graphics card anyway (and updated drivers at that). One small update, and no FPS problem at all. Second, the Battlefront folks are the best at what they do and offer some of the best support in the gaming community. Period. If there's really a problem with the game, rest assured, they'll fix it if they can. Third, I understand the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but I think you've made your position and problems very, very well know in this board. Now take a breath and give 'em a chance to work on it. Fourth, isn't there a demo of Kursk available? Did you try that before you purchased the game? Lastly, I'd bet horse meat would make some great jerky, but probably can't compare to donuts, huh.

Peace,

Von Fauster

Sneaksie: Low framerates reported in first few missions are caused by big amount of units acting simultaneously, some systems fare better than others in such stressful conditions. To improve the framerates, unit count in these missions might be reduced, but this will be obviously undesirable for those who don't have problems. New patch contains further AI delays and algorithms tuning (along with other fixes and new content), which may improve framerates as well, but your mileage may vary.

If you have low framerates in big battles, try turning performance-hungry graphics features first (for example, dithered shadows). If this doesn't help, but your fps go sky-high when you pause the game, it means that the cpu is the bottleneck. I would play such engagement using 0.5 time speed (selected at the top of the screen) until unit count drop.

Reply by Knaust1: well said...but then you have to change system requirements in the game specs

Well...if rigs meet system requirements specified in the advertisement and still there is a cpu bottleneck, what would you say about that?

Yes..we are in the same forum

[Von Fauster]

...I never liked donuts. I prefer burritos.

Yeah! Something we agree on! I prefer burritos too!

[Von Fauster]

What are the "Wespe" and "Hummel" doing in this game ?

These are DIVISIONAL arty SP pieces for motorized/pz divisions. They should be off "board" with the other div arty. They have no business being situated forward so as to coming under direct fire.

Out of curiosity, did any divisional units get overrun to the point that such pieces could have come under direct fire? I'm (slowly) working my way through "Kursk: Hitler's Gamble,1943" but have yet to see anything about these units.

[Narses]

I can't give you a specific example and I've read Glantz's monster book on Kursk.

Since the Germans were advancing they had some opportunity to retrieve their armor (btw, in the 60's in Germany I was a plt ldr in a 7th Army "Dragon Wagon" company doing just that in exercises) and German overall total armor losses were not very large. They would in most cases retrieve only vehicles that could be repaired since this was a combat situation. But in the subsequent Soviet counterattacks after what the Germans consider as Kursk certainly they overran some Ger units.

But that's not the point. This game is more tactical in nature and div arty is mostly off map and rightly so. CM had these vehicles as well and I'm really not bitching just making an observation. I don't think they add much but they are great graphically.

A quick ck of losses frpm Zetterling & Frankson's Kursk 1943: A Statistical Analysis. This book gives actual German losses from unit original reports (these reports were used to obtain replacements so they appear true). The II SS Pz Korps and "GD" report all their equipment losses (pgs 124 & 125) along with 2nd Pz Army and 9th Army as well as Army Det Kempf and the other 4th Pz Army units.

I'll just give GD and II SS reports. Actually some of the others even are more complete as far as small arms and mortars are concerned.

GD report for 6 July thru 17 July show no arty losses - towed or SP. They show total losses (destroyed by enemy action, blown in place, abandoned) as 3 Pz III's, 16 Pz IV's, 1 Stug, 44 Panthers (Panther losses were reported by 10 Pz Bde not GD), no Tigers. Also 32 motorcycles, 28 cars, 31 trucks, 9 nonarmored halftracks, 4SPW ( 250 & 251) and 1 Marder II. GD personnelm losses (again, reported to get replacements) were: 364 KIA, 1859 WIA, 68 MIA, Total 2291.

Although this game doesn't portray II SS Pz Korps their equipment losses were reported thru 23 July: 5 Pz III's, 23 Pz IV's, 3 Tigers, 5 Stugs, 2 15cm Howitzers, 2 10.5cm howitzers, 16 7.5 Pak's, 2 7.5cm SP Pak's (Marders?), 3% of all MG's, 3.5% of all 5 cm Paks, 3% of all motorcycles, 4 % of all trucks & cars,, 4% of all towing vehicles, and 8% of all SPW's. Personnel losses were 1487 KIA, 6442 WIA, 166 MIA, Total 8095. Remember II SS Pz Korps was roughly 3 times larger than GD, a single elite division, and had Das Reich, LAH and Totenkopf and Korps troops.

[Von Fauster]

Narses, that's some awesome information. Thanks so much for sharing. As an aside, do you think 10th Pz Panther losses were mostly combat related or mechanical in nature?

BTW: I served with the 4th Infantry in the '80s driving M113A2s. Salute! :-)

[Narses]

Let me respond this way. I'm using both the book mentioned above (Zetterling) and Jentz's Panzertruppen Vol II.

The Operations section of XXXXVIII Pz Korps in their daily Tagesmeldungen (daily reports) showed for each day July 5 thru July 18 the following Panthers available: 184, 166, 40,?, 16,10,30,25,43,36,20,43,44,44. These reports from Ops were submitted between 1700 and 1800 hrs so that is the status at that time (From Panzertruppen Vol II by Jentz. The figures in Zetterling are a bit different).

Since there were 200 Panthers at Kursk you can see there were some major problems with this machine especially if 40 only were operational after the third day (7 July)! This was due not to enemy action so much but due to defects in the engines, hydraulics, transmissions, suspension and bad gaskets.

One other interesting statistic is that the 2 Panther repair companies repaired on average 25 Panthers per day during Kursk.

During the first 5 days the repair companies of the Panther Rgt received 81 Panthers damaged by other than enemy action. Most needed new engines and had defects in their hydraulics. Before the battle and up to 9 July 6 Panthers had destroyed themselves by internal fires and combustion. 16 Panthers were returned to Germany as they were beyond the maintenance capabilities in the army (these were not counted as losses I believe).

After 20 July when the Germans retreated from their gains in the Kursk salient Jentz's book states the 4th Pz Army Quartermaster (Abt 5) reported that only 7 of 56 burned out panthers could not be retrieved and were destroyed to prevent their falling into Soviet hands. But it does not state if these 56 were enemy damage or a combination of mechanical defects or enemy action. Probably both.

Om 20 July this same office OQuAbtV reported 41 Panthers operational, 85 in short term repair, 16 to be returned to Germany.

It should be noted that the reports between the QM and the Ops section were most often different because their reports went in at different times of the day (hee, hee how well I know this as I was in maintenance in Vietnam and such reporting was a constant MF headache and I was reporting on heavy engineer equipment for USARV).

A number of Panthers were damaged by mines but most were short term repairs. Some sources say in the first 3 days only 2 Panthers were total losses due to enemy fire. The reports indicate the Panther's front armor was basically proof against the Soviet 76mm tank and antitank guns but the sides were very vulnerable (unlike the Tiger).

All that I can find seems to indicate most Panthers at Kursk were lost to defects in this new panzer that was rushed into service before it was ready. As I mentioned above Pz Bde 10 reported a need for 44 replacement Panthers and most of these were battle losses, destroyed because they could not be retrieved or completely destroyd by engine fires not from enemy damage (there were it seems 6 of these).

[Deputy]

I have read similar accounts of the early Panthers having all kinds of mechanical problems. The later versions seem to have solved a lot of them. Interesting that even after the war ended the Panther was still considered the best tank to come out of WW2 and wasn't really considered obsolete until many years after the war ended.

When I got back from Nam in 1969 I was assigned to the 3rd Armored Cav at Ft. Lewis, Washington. I first went to a 4.2 inch mortar track and then as a gunner for an M60A1 tank. I couldn't believe how tall that thing was and prayed we would never have to go to Europe to fight. They make VERY nice targets compared to the M1A1 Abrams.

[Narses]

The Panther did resolve most of its issues but still German Panthers and Tigers did not have great operational rates even in the West. Jentz's 2 vol Panzertruppen provides those rates. For example Tiger Abt 101 (SS) with 45 Tigers authorized generally had about 15 available daily during Jun thru Aug 44 in France with an average total including Tigers in repair of around 26 or 27. They did however have total combat losses of 15 in June and 5 in July.

While Panther probably was the best tank the T3485 and the later 76mm & 17 pdr Shermans were very good especially considering their ammo. APDS ammo & numbers kind of evened things out and as Stalin famously said "Quanity is an advantage all its own."

[Deputy]

The Panther did resolve most of its issues but still German Panthers and Tigers did not have great operational rates even in the West. Jentz's 2 vol Panzertruppen provides those rates. For example Tiger Abt 101 (SS) with 45 Tigers authorized generally had about 15 available daily during Jun thru Aug 44 in France with an average total including Tigers in repair of around 26 or 27. They did however have total combat losses of 15 in June and 5 in July.

While Panther probably was the best tank the T3485 and the later 76mm & 17 pdr Shermans were very good especially considering their ammo. APDS ammo & numbers kind of evened things out and as Stalin famously said "Quanity is an advantage all its own."

Heh...that's what Saddam thought until he ran up against rhe M1A1.

[Von Fauster]

Wow fellas. I knew the Panther (and the Tiger for that matter) suffered from the often-mentioned "teething troubles", but I had no idea it was that severe and widespread.

Deputy: I know we got off on the wrong foot, but I just want to say "Thank-you" for your service to our country. I hold our vets in nothing but the highest regard and your sacrifice for our country is truly appreciated. Salute!

[Deputy]

Von: It's cool, and thanks. I think we all want TOW Kursk to be a success and just have diffrerent situations with the sim. Hopefully Battlefront will listen to our suggestions and follow through on them.

Did you get any combat time in with the 4th?

[Knaust1]

Well...I finished 3rd battle German side at 0,5 speed...enjoyed it very well

[Von Fauster]

....Did you get any combat time in with the 4th?

Thanks man. No, I was strictly cold war. Trained at Ft. Irwin for a spell for a potential war in the Mid East (like that would ever happen ;-) ), but I was out before the shooting started. Actually got to train against Op For's "B.M.P.s" and "Hinds" though. That was cool. At the time I was in, nearly all of our NCOs were former Nam grunts, so, as you might expect, I have a lot of respect for fellas that were in country.

Peace,

Ed