How to site an ATG

[jtcm]

I once saw a picture of an ATG bunker on a Normandy beach-- it did not face out on to the sea and the whole beach, but was oriented to shoot along the beach (enfilade ?), with its side towards the sea (and, i should add, not a slab of concrete, but a 45 degree sloped side).

I've tried this when siting ATGs in CMBB-- to fire with a narrow keyhole that cuts across the whole map, perpendicular to the axis of advance which I assume the enemy will adopt; the ATG shielded by a LOS block (usually woods), themselves defended by wire, mines and a squad, to prevent the ATG from being close assaulted. But can't quite get it to work.

[dieseltaylor]

I have used the same tacticin a game with a couple of bridges and a ford or two - it really worked well. Smoke is of course the correct counter : )

[Joachim]

a) make sure the LOS is narrow, but not to narrow so the tank can cross the LOS before you can fire

make sure you can see far enough. Tanks are a bit higher than inf so slight ondulations might work. Yet a good opponent uses gullies to protect the sides of the tank - especially the tracks.

c) armor covered arc set to cover the rear of the LOS so the tank can neither cross the LOS but can not back out of LOS . If LOS is wide enough, use a small covered arc and open up at the beginning of the turn to max out the time the gun fires before your opponent tries to smoke it or targets anything onto it.

d) trench behind a small rise works well - but might reduce LOS. But never site it on a forward slope - that's a shot trap.

e) use a pair of guns - one on both sides. That way one gun always gets side or rear shots. Even small guns work for this (inf gun, light ATG, ...)

[DavidFields]

I've tried this when siting ATGs in CMBB-- to fire with a narrow keyhole that cuts across the whole map, perpendicular to the axis of advance which I assume the enemy will adopt; the ATG shielded by a LOS block (usually woods), themselves defended by wire, mines and a squad, to prevent the ATG from being close assaulted. But can't quite get it to work.

A valid tactic going all the way to PanzerBlitz, and before. EFOW, and infantry in front of the guns is, as you have pointed out, the correct solution. If you are still being close assaulted, either the enemy is a mind reader, the map is too obvious, or the forces are too imbalanced.

Maybe details, specific scenarios, where you cannot get it to work? Because...your instinct, in my opinion, is on target.

[Sgt Joch]

I once saw a picture of an ATG bunker on a Normandy beach-- it did not face out on to the sea and the whole beach, but was oriented to shoot along the beach (enfilade ?), with its side towards the sea (and, i should add, not a slab of concrete, but a 45 degree sloped side).

slightly OT, but that is done to protect the gun from Allied naval gunfire. It cannot fire out to sea since its purpose is to fire on troops/vehicles landing on the beach. Typically, the top and seaward side would be several feet thick, making it almost impervious to naval or air bombardement. The gun could only fire down the beach on one side, but another identical gun emplacement would be placed farther down the beach to cover its rear. With enough guns, you can cover the whole beach. The Allies ran into a lot of these on D-day, almost all had to be taken out by infantry/tank assaults.

[Redwolf]

Compare medieval castles and how they have turrets that aren't only high. Their whole body sticks out in front of the wall. That was done so that you can shoot at people messing with your wall from three sides.

[JasonC]

One ATG sited for narrow keyhole view does not work well. It is too easy for the enemy to just wind up going elsewhere, leaving the gun out of position and wasted.

But 2 ATGs, or better still 4 ATGs, sited in that manner, work much better. The point is to cross their lines of sight so that the enemy can't get anywhere important without giving a side shot opportunity to *one* of the guns.

When you have 4 and can double up the pairings, you can get a redundant net that remains intact even after one gun is found and knocked out. Try to interlock every pair, independently. This will cut the map up into "cells" - outside all the gun views, then had to pass by guns 1 and 2 to get there, then had to pass again by guns 1 and 3, etc.

Yes you need to cover the front with other arms against infantry approach. Best is HMGs located elsewhere but with LOS to open ground ahead of the gun position. Second best is infantry in cover in front of the gun. It is second best because it is usually easier for the enemy to locate those, build up a base of fire, and just outshoot them. Distance HMGs are stealthier and harder for the enemy to silence.

TRPed indirect artillery also helps, or obstacle belts (mines, wire) backed up by an infantry half-company in a reverse slope set-up. That makes a strong "shield" ahead of the gun.

If there is enough open ground, several HMGs and light mortars can hold the position directly, "up" deployments, just denying close approach. If the enemy drives a tank up to 200 meters away, that is when you need gun crossfire to kick in.

[dieseltaylor]

If you don't have many guns given the map size/hills it is also thinking how easy is it to relocate the gun/guns if the approach taken by the enemy is going to negate them. I play on huge maps and accept on smaller maps you would rarely have much re-deployment opportunities.

Of course if you play on small maps it does mean your opponent knows pretty exactly where your entire force is concentrated ..... The plus side of small maps is artillery becomes more useful which helps the Russians.

[JasonC]

There is other technique that works with just one gun, to duplicate the target-isolating effect of a keyhole along with the wide coverage required when it is your only long range heavy AT hitter - the "second slope" deployment.

This is a variety of the reverse slope idea. Where infantry typical uses a reverse slope by hugging the hill being defended, just behind its crest, with ranged weapons you can instead site them on the next ridge back behind the one you indeed to defend, and below its crest on the forward side. This gives the weapons a view of the crest of the front hill, and the entire slope on your side, that you will be defending, and typically much of the intervening valley bottom, as well. But they will be invisible to the whole enemy side of the front hill, where all his overwatch will initially be.

If the second ridge also has any sort of "nose", you may also keep field of fire to right and left even on the second slope - though that matters more for stealthy MGs than for guns, which will have won or died before the enemy gets to those places, typically.

The whole far side of the front ridge is conceeded to the enemy, with at most a sniper, light FO, and a couple of HMGs contesting his approach to the crest. Your infantry goes behind the crest of the front ridge, front line positions high up to keep the initial engagement range short, reserve position preferably in a draw to shelter even from enemy across the crest to right or left of the reserve. Don't uniformly guard the crest, make an ambush at a good crossing site, and cover it with obstacles as well as close range infantry fire. The rest of the crest, just sweep with fire with the heavy weapons on the second ridge, register patches of cover with an FO, etc.

One tip when using a gun this way is to let a bit more than the first vehicle across before revealing. Otherwise, the enemy keeps everything safe, gives you a less valuable item, then puts an HQ in position to spot for his mortars still on his side of the hill, and KOs the gun in reply. You want a decent chance for a "hot gun" to take out a pair of enemy tanks, say.

You can supplement this sort of defense with infantry AT weapons (schrecks are the best at it obviously) behind the crest, and AT minefields at best crossing areas (lowish saddles to avoid wide LOS, and clear of nearby infantry cover on your side that might hide a tanker, are a typical tank crosser's choice...)

[jtcm]

Thanks, makes good sense. I remember seeing a picture (probably from Signal or some such publication), in which German ATG crew celebrated brewing up a T-34. The background of the photo was a ridge; the T-34 was was taken out once it crested this ridge, the gun is in a camouflaged pit, but basically just sitting in the open, probably at the bottom of the valley or perhaps the start of the rise of the 'second slope".

[Der Alte Fritz]

The sideways firing AT gun protected from the front was the standard Russian method of deploying guns. Guns were sited so that adjacent gun positions fields of fire over lapped. So any tank attacking a gun position was fired upon by the two other gun positions to either side. A tank entering the area between positions could be fire on from the flank by the positions on either side. This ensured flank hits on the tank and rendered useless any over watch. In this context the Russian reliance on the 45mm AT gun well into 1944, does not look quite so daft even when backed up by the (fairly low velocity) 76mm divisional gun.

So in games site your AT guns in fours, one pair firing right and the other left, with covering positions to either side.

[BlackVoid]

If you are my opponent, please not read this. ;-)

Keyhole defense with guns: this is risky, especially if you have few guns, you may miss the enemy totally.

Another idea is to place your tanks near your AT guns (or not near, but able to cover about the same area), but hidden. When you decide to open up with the gun, bring forward your tanks for a shoot and scoot, or delay your tank a bit and come up with a hunt order. This way you can reverse back during the next turn. The enemy tank will engage your gun or retreat and ideally this is when your tank comes out for a kill. Also your tank should have an armor cover arc set when coming out if there are other enemy units nearby.

On many maps the attacker has a limited choice for placing his heavy weapons (guns and mortars). If you have mortar arty and you can spare some ammo, hit these places preemptively. If it is a wooded area, chances are good that you will KO mortars and guns. If there are multiple possible sites, then do not waste your ammo.

If possible protect your AT guns with mortars nearby. If the enemy attacks you with his guns, you can react with mortar fire. For pillbox AT guns, mortar cover is a must. Place the mortar(s) next to the pillbox and set a cover arc for likely enemy heavy weapons placements.

Hilltops are good, behind ridge is also good but a bit gamey, because the gun cannot be hit with direct fire.

And finally gun placement is CRUCIAL. Most players place their guns in woods. This is a very bad idea and makes the gun much easier to kill by mortars and arty: TREEBURST. Place your guns in brush, rocky or open terrain in trenches and not too close any trees. On the attack rough is the best placement for guns. Only ever use trees if you have to move the guns into position during the game, otherwise you will be spotted.

For infantry the same applies: on the defense do not use woods if it can be avoided, use trenches in other terrain instead.

[Joachim]

Gun placement in trees or rough depends on what you will face. If it is direct fire, trees are good. If it is indirect light FO arty, trees are bad. If it is heavy arty, it doesn't matter much. If you won't face single mortars, trees are ok.

If you have a small gun, trees do not just protect, they conceal. So the enemy might not even spot the gun while it is shooting. Which will avoid aimed return fire.

Soviet FO arty won't hurt single guns as willl German arty do. The Soviet shot pattern is spread too far. I've witnessed an 88 on a street sit out a 82mm mortar barrage. And I've seen futile attempts to kill spotted German guns in trees.

A crucial placement of a gun is near a bonus HQ.... abandoned guns are usuallly morale hits. So the plt with the best HQ might end up protecting a gun - or in a reserve position not too close to the gun, except for the HQ.

[Squatdog]

This is how I've always sited my AT guns (especially the girly little ones).

The best way to deploy them is tucked behind a feature that protects from direct fire, set to 'Hide' while covering a narrow arc that will hit the side armour of advancing tanks along a main axis of advance.

Guns that can defeat frontal armour can be used more offensively, with greater regard to range and LOS.