Are submarines worth it?

[Didz]

According to the strategy guide in the manual they are. And specifically because they can interdict enemy trade lanes are eliminate enemy MPP's.

So, not knowing any different at the start of my campaign both my [sS] units heading for the Indo-China trade route to begin hunting Japanese merchantment.

The Dutch [sS] didn't even make it being spotted and sunk despite running silent, but the USS Seal managed to get into the China sea and I was getting regular reports of the damage it was doing to Japanese merchant shipping.

However, even Seal's luck ran out eventually and she was sunk last turn.

This set me thinking. By my reckoning USS seal managed to intercept Japanese merchant ships more or less every turn, and according to the reports each time she did the Japanese lost 8MPP.

So, I reckon altogether she clocked up at most 48MPP, before she was found and sunk. But replacing her will cost me 200MPP, so as far as I can see I'm just over 150 MPP out of pocket on the whole episode. (Even more if you count the lost Dutch sub)

So, how does this tally, is there some hidden benefit to camping the trade lanes that isn't reported. In reality of course it wasn't so much the sending of the cargo to Davey Jones that made submarine warfare so damaging but the loss of the merchant ship carrying it. That would probably cost almost as much as the sub to replace, but we don't have to buy them in the game.

Historically, I think I'm right in saying that towards the end of the war Japan was literally running out of merchant ships because she couldn't replace them fast enough, but that doesn't see to come across in what I've seen so far.

From a simple accounting basis it looks like I would have been better off keeping my subs safe in their bases, until a nice juicy carrier came along.

[crispy131313]

Get those submarines into a more vital shipping route and you will see a big difference in the MPP's that your enemies will lose. It doesn't appear to be that easy in the Pacific however, with the Japs clogging up most of the routes from the Dutch Isles to the Japanese coast.

[Bill101]

I think that subs are definitely worth it, but more so later in the game. Early on they are pretty easy targets and without submarine research they are fairly easy to sink.

Obviously they still have a role in sinking enemy ships, but come 1944 when you've got loads of subs interdicting his convoy routes (if that's the strategy you use) it will really annoy the Japanese player. I should know, I've had it done to me enough times, and it makes Japan divert resources to more destroyers, or deploying air units to cover the routes, rather than in defending key positions or launching offensives of their own.

Of course, it does cost quite a few MPPs and takes some time to set up properly, but it is one extra way of targeting Japan and I don't think it should be neglected. But then I wrote the manual so maybe I'm a little biased!

Another bonus is that once in a while Japanese troop transports might run into them, and you will smile when you see them inflict some good damage on the transports!

[Didz]

Get those submarines into a more vital shipping route and you will see a big difference in the MPP's that your enemies will lose. It doesn't appear to be that easy in the Pacific however, with the Japs clogging up most of the routes from the Dutch Isles to the Japanese coast.

So, are the different trade routes worth different amounts. Seal seemed to be getting mostly Indo-China trade, I don't think there was much going down the Malaya one although the one report it did get from that route was still only 8MPP.

But it never entered the East China Sea to attack the Manchukuo convoys, are they worth more?

[crispy131313]

As a general rule of thumb you can expect a submarine to reduce a convoy's shipments by about 40%. Multiple submarines could see the route reduced to about 20% efficientcy. In the case of Malaya it is only worth 8 MPP (See War Map Convoy Routes in game) and it is such a small supplier the sub reduced it to 0. Some of the routes are woth 60-70 MPP such as Manchuko and a sub sabotage would result in major MPP losses for the Japanese. Hope this helps.

[Didz]

Right! so its best to try and slip into the East China Sea if you can then.

[SeaMonkey]

Don't forget your subs' "silent" mode, raid a few turns and then maneuver, never stay long in restricted waters.

[Didz]

Don't forget your subs' "silent" mode, raid a few turns and then maneuver, never stay long in restricted waters.

I get the impression in the early game that 'silent' isn't that silent. Certainly, the unlucky Dutch sub was in silent mode when it go pounced on and sunk, and its wasn't doing anything particuarly risky like sailing under the main Japanese fleet.

[crispy131313]

The Dutch sub could have infact been unlucky. If you can recall if once the sub was attacked a pop up read "Enemy Contact" then your sub was just accidently spotted by one of the Japan's very active fleets when your paths crossed and a battle commenced. If there was no pop up, you were spotted by the Japanese and they knew you there. Bombers can spot submarines a long distance away for example.

[Didz]

Yes, I think I did get an 'Enemy Contact' report.

[xwormwood]

Didz, don't forget that a sub with full strength (10+) and full supply hurts convoy lines more than a sub with strength 5 and low supply.

This makes a HUGE difference.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

In Global Conflict, having more convoy routes would certainly help.

The real Japanese merchant fleet had a heckuva more well-traveled convoy lanes than they do in PT, but the current game engine only allows one convoy per country (from a country). I hope this will be remedied in GC (Hubert?).

[jon_j_rambo]

Subs are "worth it", IF, that's IF, you're willing to "go Navy". Meaning, you're going to support them later in the game with a big badass Navy as the Yanks. Else, the Japs will pepper the flies off.

If you're talking about "A.I.", no need to fight a war of attrition. No need to bother with raiding convoys. Just build tons of subs for a mass Armada for destruction.

[Didz]

Didz, don't forget that a sub with full strength (10+) and full supply hurts convoy lines more than a sub with strength 5 and low supply. This makes a HUGE difference.

Good point I'd sort of forgotten the supply thing as far as USS Seal was concerned. It was probably pretty low stuck out there on its own with no friendly bases nearby. (Long way to go for fresh torpedoes)

[SeaMonkey]

Didz don't ever forget supply in SC, logistics are of paramount importance. The first thing I do when initiating a game turn is check my units' supply status.

Low(<5) supplied units are pretty useless(and will receive losses) for assaulting strong enemy positions, don't even bother, move them back into good supply(>5) or move your logistical base(HQ) into a supporting position.

There are exceptions of course as long as the enemy is weak or likewise under supplied.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yep, if your supply isn't highlighted in "white" > 5, combat is lame, unless you're fighting another turd or you have mega experience.

[Didz]

Yeah! this is the problem I'm facing in Burma at the minute thanks to my stupidity in losing General Hutton at Mandalay. I suspect in restrospect that his survival was more important than holding Mandalay, and now my British units in Burma are all on 5 or less supply state.

According to the strategy guide I'm supposed to be doing that to the Japanese not myself.

[Hubert Cater]

John, convoys still only allow one per country but they've been overhauled in cause and effect quite a bit with more raiding options as well as their overall importance. More info on that should be coming in the next few weeks as we finalize some of the details.

[jon_j_rambo]

I'm feeling good vibes about SC-GC