N. Korea

[Cpl Steiner]

Hi all,

Tensions really seem to be rising with regard to North Korea. UN Resolution 1874, passed unanimously on Friday, calls for all member nations to stop and search shipping of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) for illegal arms imports. In response, N. Korea says it will treat any such action as an act of war. It also says it will step up its nuclear armament program to weaponise all of its stocks of plutonium.

Does CM:SF have the equipment to simulate a conflict between UN member states and N. Korea? It would be great if we also had a voice samples mod for the DPRK forces. There is already one for Russia. I think such a near future conflict is ripe for simulation in CM:SF.

[dima]

Mostly yes. With the exception of T-80's and T-72B's (which is almost a T-90) you've got pretty much all the tanks russians have.

I wouldn't even bother changing voices. Just make a scenario with the proper briefing and noone will even notice.

[Cpl Steiner]

Just found this quote searching on the web:

"Pentagon experts have estimated that the first ninety days of such a conflict might produce 300,000 to 500,000 South Korean and American military casualties, along with hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. The damage to South Korea alone would rock the global economy."

It would be the bloodiest war the West has faced since Vietnam, possibly even since WWII.

If BFC are looking for a setting for CM:SF 2, look no further!

[Field Marshal Blücher]

It would be the bloodiest war the West has faced since Vietnam, possibly even since WWII.

I'd guess bloodier than Vietnam, personally. Just a guess though, and I hope it doesn't happen!

[gibsonm]

Does CM:SF have the equipment to simulate a conflict between UN member states and N. Korea? It would be great if we also had a voice samples mod for the DPRK forces. There is already one for Russia. I think such a near future conflict is ripe for simulation in CM:SF.

Well they haven't modelled any of the S. Korean kit, and based on who was there for round 1 they also haven't got equipments for:

Turkey

Australia

New Zealand

As for voices, well if the balloon does go up I'll take a recorder over there for you.

But I'd much rather stay here.

[Sivodsi]

Turkey

Australia

New Zealand

Well, New Zealand has deployed a grand total of 4 officers to Sth Korea, so I shouldn't think there would be much trouble whipping up a uniform mod for a couple of colonels/lieutenants

The rest of its armed forces consists of LAVs + support vehicles, so even if they were to deploy to the ROK nothing new to include in terms of AFVs.

There are 16 other countries represented in the DMZ, but I don't think they have much more than a few token officers - but correct me if I am wrong.

The main things to include would be the Sth Korean army's AFVs. They have their own MBTs, the K1A1:

and the latest K2:

Compared to the M1, the hull is quite similar but there are substantial differences in the turret. I suppose the actual capabilities of the two tanks would be quite similar, so perhaps a mod would do the job.

As for the other MBTs, Sth Korea also has 30 odd T80 Us (from Russia as payment for debt) as well as a heap of older updated M48s

They also have some interesting IFVs, the older K-200:

And the next generation K-21, which will have a fibre class chassis:

These might be represented by some of the Brits IFVs, when the module comes.

[gibsonm]

Well, New Zealand has deployed a grand total of 4 officers to Sth Korea, so I shouldn't think there would be much trouble whipping up a uniform mod for a couple of colonels/lieutenants

I think in 1950 - 1953 they deployed a lot more than that.

The rest of its armed forces consists of LAVs + support vehicles, so even if they were to deploy to the ROK nothing new to include in terms of AFVs.

The NZ LAV 3 (and our ASLAVs for that matter) a much different to the USMC version shown in CM:SF

There are 16 other countries represented in the DMZ, but I don't think they have much more than a few token officers - but correct me if I am wrong.

I'm not talking about on day 1, just like in 1950 if it erupts they will be units from all over the world moving there.

So of course initially it will be just the ROK and the US but from say D+3 other units from other countries will begin to arrive in theatre by air and then heavy units will arrive by sea.

The main things to include would be the Sth Korean army's AFVs. They have their own MBTs, the K1A1:

and the latest K2:

Compared to the M1, the hull is quite similar but there are substantial differences in the turret. I suppose the actual capabilities of the two tanks would be quite similar, so perhaps a mod would do the job.

As for the other MBTs, Sth Korea also has 30 odd T80 Us (from Russia as payment for debt) as well as a heap of older updated M48s

They also have some interesting IFVs, the older K-200

And the next generation K-21, which will have a fibre class chassis

These might be represented by some of the Brits IFVs, when the module comes.

And what of the Turks with all their M60 variants and other vehicles?

And why would a ROK carbon fibre AFV be represented in the British Module?

Yes you might be able to use CM:SF + USMC + UK to represent some limited Korean War part 2 (it has never ended by the way) but you certainly could not represent the large bulk of engagements accurately.

Add to that the lack of CBRN effects in the CM:SF family and other limitations (no water, no snow, etc.) and you will certainly have a very limited simulation of what is really happening.

Of course if you are going to start saying "This Warrior is really a K-21" then you can dream up anything you want to.

[Sivodsi]

GibsonM, thanks for your swift reply.

And what of the Turks with all their M60 variants and other vehicles?

And why would a ROK carbon fibre AFV be represented in the British Module?

Do you want me to go and look through the armed forces of all the 16 nations who were there for Round 1, and do a complete run down on all of them? Gee, you are a hard taskmaster!

No, I was only pointing out a few bits of Sth Korea's kit, and how it might be possible to represent them in a Nth vs Sth scenario.

If you played CMX1 and hung out on those forums you would be aware that there were complete mod sets available for the Pacific theatre even though Japanese equipment differed quite markedly, and it is in this spirit that I posted.

Yes you might be able to use CM:SF + USMC + UK to represent some limited Korean War part 2 (it has never ended by the way) but you certainly could not represent the large bulk of engagements accurately.

Well, yes, and that's the whole point. BFT will never release an expansion pack depicting war breaking out on the Korean peninsula, so if anybody has an interest in recreating it using what is available (and why not? Its only a game) they will have to use their imagination and improvise.

[gibsonm]

GibsonM, thanks for your swift reply.

Do you want me to go and look through the armed forces of all the 16 nations who were there for Round 1, and do a complete run down on all of them? Gee, you are a hard taskmaster!

No you just suggested it was easy, I was pointing out that it wasn't.

But if you do want an accurate simulation of the resumption of the Korean War, you need to be prepared to replicate the countries that are likely to come back and resume the battle.

If you played CMX1 and hung out on those forums you would be aware that there were complete mod sets available for the Pacific theatre even though Japanese equipment differed quite markedly, and it is in this spirit that I posted.

Well actually I have (since BTS brought out "Chance Encounter") its just that when I was moved to the Beta test group and the new forum software was adopted (you were here for that, right?) prior to CMSF coming out my join date was changed.

Or did you think I'd racked up some 4,000 posts in just 2 years?

For example here is one from 2000 (see post 6):

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=19733

I'm not saying you can't adapt CM:SF to something else but you'll need:

1. A fair bit of imagination, and

2. Not be concerned about historical accuracy (as in the case of Shermans fighting Japanese "Type 97" Chi Ha tanks which are really Panzer III's say).

And perhaps that's where we differ.

When I play CM:SF (or any of the CM titles) I want it to be a "simulation" where the electronic vehicles and troops and weapons simulate what happens in real life.

I suspect you have a broader aim of playing it as a "game" where the simulation aspects are less important (not that there is anything wrong with that).

[Sivodsi]

No you just suggested it was easy, I was pointing out that it wasn't.

What I did say (and with a big smiley face to indicate that my tongue was firmly in cheek) was that NZ could be represented by a mod of a couple officers (and yes, I realize this would not be possible).

Nowhere did I suggest that it would be easy to do a Sth Korean mod. To do so would be to disrespect the amount of time that modders put into their work. All I was doing was just pointing out some Sth Korean kit and possibilities for representing them in a scenario, as I stated above.

[M1A1TC]

Ive been working on a South and North Korean mods for awhile now. Ill try to post some screens soon

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[Cpl Steiner]

N Korea would be stopped at the border and defeated. (seriously. ) Also the casualty figures seem way too high imo.

Seoul, capital city of S. Korea, population 10 million, is just 40 km from the border. N Korea has stocks of every WMD you can imagine, from nerve gas to biological weapons. Seeing as they've virtually got ICBMs now, I doubt it would be hard for them to hit Seoul with a lot of very nasty stuff if they wanted to.

[Canada Guy]

Think of a highly unstable regime (and I do not mean unstable as in chaotic or uncontrolled but rather illogical or mentally unfit) and you have the recipe for disaster. I do not think that N Korea would use its WMD at the beginning but it has arty that could reach the capital. It has also constructed a series of tunnels under the DMZ that are capable of allowing them to gain the initiative. Each tunnel is large enough to permit the passage of an entire division of infantry in one hour. With only the S Koreans and the 35,000 US troops stationed there, it might be able to grab a foothold and possible take Seoul (along with my favourite place in S Korea - Naksansa).

The only upside of this would be that China would not see it to their advantage to allow an invasion to occur. Provoking a war between US/N Korea would harm their enormous investments in US treasury bonds. But again, N Korea is not logical and if it looked as if the N Koreas might lose, it would not be in China's best interest to allow a unified Korea to exist. An open (by Asian standards) Korea on China's doorstep would be intolerable. Which way Russia would side with though is anyone's guess.

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[SlapHappy]

I have always felt that North Korea played the mad dog role more or less to try and gather some handouts through a show of strength. Hopefully at some point, before something really bad does happen, their administration will see that such a tack is highly unproductive. This is a country that has trouble simply feeding people. Those people deserve better, and hopefully one day they will get it.

[Cpl Steiner]

I have always felt that North Korea played the mad dog role more or less to try and gather some handouts through a show of strength. Hopefully at some point, before something really bad does happen, their administration will see that such a tack is highly unproductive. This is a country that has trouble simply feeding people. Those people deserve better, and hopefully one day they will get it.

N. Korea is like that state in George Orwell's "1984", in which there has to be a continuous outside threat to keep the people from rebelling:

"The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous. Hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance. This new version is the past and no different past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia, but to keep the very structure of society intact."

George Orwell, "1984".