Humvees

[General Jack Ripper]

Im tring to set up some 'Generation Kill' type scenarios where you roll in humvees through various situations, but the trouble I'm having is as sonn as enemy opens up, all my humvee gunners turn in and the humvees drive on without any weapons manned.

Is there a way to force the humvee gunners to stay turned out and man their weapons?

[akd]

Nope, constant micromanagement is the only solution.

[Peter Panzer]

Slim:

It ain't happening in v.1.11, baby. The latest patch hosed the behavior of crews manning roof-mounted weapon stations like those on the M1114 and MTVR. What's more, troops cannot fire from the windows. The later I can live with, but the former is a big step backward for those of us who attempt to use light vehicles as something other than cannon fodder.

I first mentioned this here.

Also, there is no in-game LOS tool for the M707 for some reason. Unarmed UNCON spies have them, but their mechanized US counterparts get shorted. I brought this up again here.

V1.2 is likely weeks away, it would be great if these types of issues were addressed.

[General Jack Ripper]

Thanks for the repilies, I guess I'll have to wait and see...

[MikeyD]

Humvee mgs should be able to easily outrange Syrian AKs. The problem is terrain and structures usually conspire to bring the fight VERY close. I recall a document that said in WWII it was advised to keep U.S. halftracks a at least a quarter mile from the battle line. I believe initial-design M1114 armor was proof against an AK round from 100m. The Humvee gunner's going to die if he stays unbuttoned in an up-close fight, which is why he buttons up. The best chance to keep the Humvee gunner unbuttoned is to restrict him to long range firing. Charging into the teeth of the fight is either going to button him up or kill him, or both.

[akd]

I would think he would be even more likely to die buttoned up in an environment with RPGs at close range. Keeping the gun going is probably the best protection, and "buttoning up" a humvee isn't going to make any difference for an RPG hit.

I think the core issue is that there needs to be two behaviors: traditional "buttoning up" for armored fighting vehicles (which are designed to fight in that state) and simple "ducking" where close proximity fire causes the gunner to briefly lower his head into cover. The only circumstance where a humvee gunner should drop into the vehicle and close the hatch long term should be if their morale breaks, not if they just receive a few rounds in their general vicinity (and leadership in the vehicle should play a strong role here).

[Peter Panzer]

The problem is terrain and structures usually conspire to bring the fight VERY close.

With all due respect Mikey, the problem is precisely as AKD and myself have outlined. Self preservation behavior, which is perfectly logical when it comes to protecting AFV commanders is utterly antithetical to what M1114/MTVR gunners do in reality and should do in-game.

Gunners do not button up, the safety of their team dictates they do exactly the opposite. The engagement range argument falls flat, man. I have gunners button up in-game after a few AK rounds hit the hull of their '1114's at 200 and 300 meters.

Given that SLIM referenced Evan Wright's account of 1st Recon Battalion's exploits, I would suggest reading up on their gunner's behavior in close range ambushes to see how the crews actually react in real life operations. Again, respectfully, it is nothing like what you are advocating should be the case in CMSF.

We need you to carry the torch on this one - get this fix into v1.2, please. Don't forget the M707's LOS tool - we have been supplied with a recon vehicle with no eyes for Christ sake.

M1114 Humvee

M1114 gunners button up after a few incoming rounds impacting on the vehicle - even rounds that are in close vicinity will sometimes trigger the behavior. Gunners remain in this posture until the fire slacks off. I believe we are seeing an AI routine intended to aid the survivability of AFV commanders adversely effecting the realistic portrayal of '1114 gunners.

The primary weapon station on the '1114 must remain "up," the team's survival quite often depends on it. Gunners do not drop down at the hint of danger, in fact, it is precisely the opposite that is the case. Here are a few examples from .mil (bold font is mine)...

"Humvee Gunners Set Sights on New Shield" Erik Slavin, Stars and Stripes (Oct. 2005)

Given a choice between protecting themselves by sitting or leaving the task of spotting a suicide car bomber to someone else, nearly all gunners interviewed said they would stand.

“I understand what my job is,” said Spc. Joshua Forman, 21, of Sammamish, Wash. “I understand that I could die. Once you get past that, it’s not really an issue. You come to peace with that, you can do more for your team. I’d gladly give my life to save the life of any other soldier I work with.”

"U.S., Afghan Soldiers Fight Their Way Out of an Ambush" Micah E. Clare, Army News (July 2007)

The silence was broken by the muffled sound of a dull thud in the distance, which didn't register with Sgt. Heinicke at first, because of the thick armor practically soundproofing his vehicle.

"Did you hear something up there?" Sgt. Heinicke called up to Spc. Stone in the turret.

"Um....yeah, maybe," Spc. Stone replied, leaning out of his turret so he could hear. "It might have been an explosion. I couldn't tell."

Spc. Stone quickly scanned for targets with his Mark-19 automatic grenade launcher. All he could see was a billowing column of black smoke.

...The job went to Spc. Stone, who fired off several 40mm grenade rounds onto the hilltop at a vanishing enemy....

...The enemy weapons fire had largely died down; especially after the Humvee gunners pointed their weapons towards the enemy and began firing. The rapid bursts of concussive shells hitting the insurgent's fighting positions pulverized rocks and felled trees.

M707 Recon Humvee

M707's cannot use the "Target" LOS tool in-game like their unarmed UNCON "Spy" counterparts. This greatly reduces their utility, can this please be corrected in v.1.12?

[General Jack Ripper]

Humvee mgs should be able to easily outrange Syrian AKs. The problem is terrain and structures usually conspire to bring the fight VERY close. I recall a document that said in WWII it was advised to keep U.S. halftracks a at least a quarter mile from the battle line. I believe initial-design M1114 armor was proof against an AK round from 100m. The Humvee gunner's going to die if he stays unbuttoned in an up-close fight, which is why he buttons up. The best chance to keep the Humvee gunner unbuttoned is to restrict him to long range firing. Charging into the teeth of the fight is either going to button him up or kill him, or both.

I'm sorry sir, but I must disagree with your statement. The testing that I ran for my scenario included entrenched enemies at 300-200 Meters ambushing a CAAT Platoon. (This to determine Humvee effectiveness in general) Even though the enemy was 300 meters away, the Humvee gunners buttoned up like scared rabbits, and the crew in the humvees simply watched in fascination as the un-suppressed enemy lobbed RPG's at them until the humvees and crew were dead.

From what I have discoved in further testing, the Humvees in CMSF are simply not effective in combat at all. It is a vary rare example where the gunner stays with his gun for even a few seconds of incoming fire, even though there is a nice big gun shield for him to hide behind. It is almost as if the gun shield isn't recognized by the game, so the gunner thinks he's unprotected. If that were the case however, gunners still button up far too early for my tastes, even when the vehicle is hull down, or on a ridge and the enemy is slightly below, gunners are like rabbits.

[theFightingSeabee]

Quick solution: Give them turret armor and keep 'em unbuttoned until they're really in trouble.

[Peter Panzer]

Quicker solution: adjust the roof-mounted station gunners' behavior to reflect that which was present in v.1.10 given that it was far more realistic than what we have now. Personally, Seabee, I love your suggestion, but don't hold your breath.

Humvees in v1.11 are scarcely worth more than REDFOR target practice, transports for a box or two of virtual 5.56 and a means to claim the game has accurate TO&E's. CMSF CAAT teams and Army gunners do not reflect their real-life potential in-game.

Below are some examples from Evan Wright's account of '1114 gunners in the 1st Recon Battlion (USMC) during the initial march to Baghdad in 2003. If you are going to brand your product as a "Tactical Ground Combat Simulation" I would think there would be a desire to get this stuff right, correct?

Through much of this advance, First Recon, mounted in a combination of seventy lightly armored and open-top Humvees and trucks, will race ahead of RCT 1, uncovering enemy positions and ambush points by literally driving right into them.

That's right folks, they drove into some very close range firefights. In reality, these teams do not have the luxury of "outranging" OPFOR systems. You fight your way out of a killzone - assuming the fetal postion makes you useless and gets your team killed.

The other team member in the vehicle is Cpl. Gabriel Garza, a twenty-one-year-old from Sebastian, Texas. He stands half out of the vehicle, his body extending from the waist up through a turret hatch. He mans the Mark-19 automatic grenade gun, the vehicle's most powerful weapon, mounted on top of the Humvee. His job is perhaps the team's most dangerous and demanding. Sometimes on his feet for as long as twenty hours at a time, he has to constantly scan the horizon for threats.

Out of the hatch, all of the time...

Colbert delivers instructions to Garza, who is keeping watch on the Mark-19...

The gun is "up."

Colbert orders Hasser onto the Mark-19 grenade launcher, and with the ZPU still firing, the team methodically directs fire at it.

Inbound, automatic 23 mike mike - the gunner is out of the hatch and returning fire. You will not see this in v.1.11 of CMSF.

Al Hayy...

From an ambush standpoint, we drive through the worst terrain imaginable. The road sinks down and snakes between tree-lined hamlets, whose walls extend right up to the edge of the Humvees. Some of Recon's transport trucks take fire. One has two of its tires shot out, but it rides on its rims. A Humvee in Charlie Company comes under heavy machine-gun fire. Marines ahead of us pelt the building where the hostile fire is coming from with about thirty Mark-19 grenades, blowing off large chunks of its facade and suppressing the enemy fire.

They are under fire. Guess what platform those Mk19's are mounted on? M1114's, go figure.

Muwaffaqiyah...

...the pipe and the ruined truck in front were deliberately placed to channel the vehicle into what is known in military terms as a "kill zone." We are sitting in the middle of an ambush box.

As soon as Colbert opens up, the enemy sprays the kill zone with rifle and machine-gun fire. They also launch at least one RPG that flies across the hood of our Humvee.

They cannot fire indiscriminately with their Humvees so close together. Each carefully picks his targets. Robert Bryan, team medic, in a Humvee behind Colbert's, takes out two men with head shots. When the .50-caliber machine gun opens up overhead, the concussive blasting is so intense that Bryan's nose starts gushing blood.

Close range ambush, no chance to "outrange" here. That .50cal. returning fire in order to break the ambush, yeah, it's mounted on...the roof of a Humvee. Replicate this behavior in the "Tactical Ground Combat Simulation."

Outside of Ba'qubah...

Iraqi Republican Guard troops have dug into trenches along both sides of the road. The enemy fighters are armed with every conceivable type of portable weapon — from machine guns to mortars to rocket-propelled grenades.

"I have no targets! I have no targets!" Colbert repeats over the gunfire, but Cpl. Walt Hasser, the gunner in the turret who operates the Mark-19 grenade launcher, begins lobbing rounds toward a nearby village.

Mortars are exploding so close you feel the overpressure punching down on the Humvee.

At this point in CMSF your virtual gunners are filling their pants while the rest of the platoon gets aired out.

Come on guys, this should be an easy one. Honestly, I just do not understand the type of pleading that seemingly has to take place to get these types of obvious things noticed and addressed.

[Pandur]

somehow this is all right in my eyes but all wrong too, i dont know how to say it different.

see i am quiet fine with the humvees and they have their uses also they arent a total crap like you guys describe, in my eyes.

"yes", the gunners button up fast, "no" they dont button up when they have something to shoot at.

eample, the vehicles get shot at from the side and the gunner has no idea where the fire comes from, he buttons up. thats a GOOD thing as he would be dead in the game soon after and thats even worse!

if they come to see a enemy the gunner gets out and shoots, maybe not if they are pinned or totaly supressed.

so i dont know exactly where youre problems are. it seems you place a humvee into a semi symetrical syrian conflict and think it stand up like in irak? there "is" a difference.

iam sure if you repeat this 300m entrenched "enemies"(you didnt told us if they where rep guard or combatant) and place 5 or 6 conscript combatants in there you wont have any problems with humvees.

but often in scenarios one fights "army", syrian army but still. imagine a platoon of syrians entrenched, green at 300 meters by the side of the lets say 4 humvees. thats about 23 AK74´s, 4 RPGs and a sniper and 3 pistols

all they have to do is aim at 4 points, they open up first and got at least 5 to 10 seconds to shoot freely without intereference. thats not the usual irak example as these guys are still of some kind of army, so they have basic fire control and whatnot, they open up at the same time and even try to "aim" in the game

this gets in supression and they button up or die sooner or later if they dont. in the game they button as the game does not want to present you with humvees without gunners. they try to preserve themselfs wich is ok i find.

you guys must stop mixing up irak with syria.

[Clavicula_Nox]

you guys must stop mixing up irak with syria.

No way, man. Gunners acting the way they do has nothing to do with Iraq or anything other than the fact that if they are not up the entire time, they put themselves, their vehicle, and every vehicle in the column at risk.

If a gunner takes fire to his rear, he should stay where he is and watch his sector while his buddies behind him deal with the threat. Or, if he has no one else, he should rotate his weapon and return fire; not hide and wait for RPG rounds to hit his vehicle.

[Pandur]

No way, man. Gunners acting the way they do has nothing to do with Iraq or anything other than the fact that if they are not up the entire time, they put themselves, their vehicle, and every vehicle in the column at risk.

[Clavicula_Nox]

i perfectly understand the dilema but would they put the humvees in the same role in syria depicted by the game, as they do in irak? i think they perform unrealistic in a unrealistic enviorment(sorry sp?) in the game. thats why we got so few humvees probably and they arent focused on.

Yes, humvees would be used exactly the same way. Not everyone rides to war in tanks, IFVs, and Strykers.

[Pandur]

hm, ok well, either i lack english skills or i dont know. sure, war isnt waged only by abrams tanks and .50 cal snipers but does that mean they would risk sending a humvee or truck laden with troops befor they send the armored stuff(like brad or strykers or "gavins" ) to secure the friggin place!? i dont think they take the risk nowadays if it is in a theatre as the "game" showes.

the matter about buttoning up, i dont know in RL they probably wouldnt stand up too long as in the game when it goes into a urban area with a threat depicted as in the game, thats the important thing, this isnt irak, this is game and syria.

[Yardstick]

When you Air Assault an IBCT to seize and hold an OBJ in the ENYs rear area, the HMMWVs will be AASLTed with them. With out the AT company, a light infantry company will have a hard time against any kind of motorized/mechanized counter attack.

So yeah, this game is set in Syria. You have to figure that in a full scale invasion of Syria we would deploy some Air Assault assets. So yes, the HMMWVs are being used the way they were intended. That's my two cents, YMMV.

[meade95]

The issue of Humvees buttoning up hopefully will (has to) be addressed with the next patch - I also believe the tweaking down of RPG accuracy needs to be addressed as well.

[Pandur]

oh yea ok i get it you guys want more dead gunners. i found it good as is, hopefully it stays.

and what about RPG accuracy again? thats settled since many patches, its perfect as it is now. the RPG 29 is still quiet bad though

i just say you dont know how to use the humvees , just now a houer ago i racked up a BMP-2 kill with 2 .50 cal humvees and the inf squad in it after that.

[Dietrich]

Instead of arguing hypotheticals and such, how about we narrow this discussion (now that it is in its second page) to a specific scenario.

To wit: "USMC 3:10 to Yuma". This scenario features Humvees. The Humvees are key to getting Blue's infantry to the location they must defend. The scaredy-gunner behavior this thread is discussing is key to the survival of the Humvees on the way to the "Alamo".

True, the tactical situation of "3:10 to Yuma" may be inherently unrealistic; I don't know. But as far as CMSF is concerned, I think it provides a pretty good frame of reference which is pertinent to this discussion.

I have only played this scenario post v1.11. My experiences have been mixed. The first several times I played through it, I sent the Humvees along the road all the way to the police station. Most of those times, at least one Humvee would get knocked out before negotiating that more-than-90 degree bend and at least one Humvees gunners would get WIA/KIA.

The next several times I played the scenario, I sent my Humvees down the road at full speed until they reached that little house, whereupon I had them do a 45-degree left turn into the field to zoom across the open and over the ditch before barrelling into town. This shortcut yielded fewer casualties that going along the road. I got the best results when taking the shortcut and buttoning up the gunners from the get-go, but it was still definitely running a gauntlet.

And all the US troops in this scenario are Elite (they're supposed to represent Delta Force operators). If even Elite gunners are buttoning up at the first 7.62mm round that snaps past their ears, they're of little use.

The thing is... if a Humvee gunner is buttoned up, isn't it that not only is the Humvee unable to use its firepower to defend itself but its spotting capability suffers as well? In light of that, all the more reason for Humvee gunners remain unbuttoned either until they actually get hit or until a lot of bullets are snapping past their ears.

[Pandur]

The thing is... if a Humvee gunner is buttoned up, isn't it that not only is the Humvee unable to use its firepower to defend itself but its spotting capability suffers as well?

and thats the important thing! thats wrong in the game for the most part. for the game it is "mostly" if you go in unbuttoned you loose the gunner and there you go you got a humvee but no gunner, what you get for subbornness

if you go in buttoned up they are much much more safe against rifles, and as soon as they see enemies wich happens fast or at least not slower then other vehicles, they open up and swiss cheese the guy shooting. simple

[bold]i never saw a gunner button up himself when he had something to shoot at, no they even unbutton by themselfs if they see something while buttoned up[/bold], but you guys seem to plunder right into the amushes ubuttoned and lose the gunner instantly so you never see a humvee seeing anything actually.

i played the "USMC trail by fire" scenario again yesterday, great scenario i suggest to try it out, it got quiet a lot humvees and their up against Airborne/SF and rep guards, even i loose em to the AI there.

and fair enough, i gona hit 3:10 to YUMA right now to see how that is, i dont know it at all so i gona play it. but everyone elite!? this sounds quiet unrealistic itself, no matter wich or what is represented

however iam the last one to have a prob with this, lets see if its fun!

[cabal23]

I created Trial By Fire and I wanted to see what a small group of snipers and ATGM hummers could do. I had just finished reading Shooter and was intrigued by the authors radical departure from standard sniper tactics, using Humvess to quickly move soldiers around the field. Also the "Thunder Runs" of Gen Kill also intrigued me. I think armored Humvees provide a huge tactical advantage in the form of mobility. Unfortunately I agree with the assessment that they button up way too fast. An example is when I had a soldier aiming a TOW a building where he knows the fire is coming from. It is like trying to get a virgin on prom night to take her pants off. In out in out..it was almost a comedy. I think a soldier would take the risk if he knew where the fire was coming from and he had superior fire power to eliminate the enemy. I am not sure what the answer is but I know from reading many real life accounts that Humvees have much more versatility in the real world, especially when properly armored. I would hope by the time the fictional Syrian conflicts starts, we would not be faced with the quagmire that was unarmored Hummers rolling into combat, getting shot to pieces, as in the Iraq war.

[Clavicula_Nox]

I would hope by the time the fictional Syrian conflicts starts, we would not be faced with the quagmire that was unarmored Hummers rolling into combat, getting shot to pieces, as in the Iraq war.

No way, dawg, I personally wouldn't have it any other way. Keeps soldiers on their toes.

[Pandur]

well cabal23 the scenario you made is quiet fine and i still dont see any problem with the humvee other then them beeing no tanks

i played youre scenario at least 3 times so far. last time i killed a BMP2 with two 12.7mm humvees. notherone got shot by a TOW, the rest was taken out by the infantry(jav, AT4, LAWs).

a TOW humvee blew up 3 SF jeeps AT ONCE while they stood together!!! 3 jeeps comming from the warehouse in turn two, stuffed with SF soldiers, lol all dead. that was nice.

all in all there where 4 jeeps comming from the warehouse and the last was was shot to pieces by both 12.7mm snipers.

also i played 3:10 to YUMA yesterday. well most awsome scenario and the elite units just pawn. thats a bit over the top i think.

again no prob with the humvees, they performed great. shooting up opposition wherever they went. i didint go into the city at first, figured police is fine alone and if the army isnt there i dont need to be either. so i was going through the country side shooting up all the enemies there wich waited for me to race to the city. i ambushed the guys following me on the road with the 40mm humvee and the JTAC team. noone go out of the technicals and UAZ´s they all had a compftable dead while seated.

but hell i played around for too long , suddenly some guys where comming out "behind" me from a wooded area(i was at this roundabout hill if you know what i mean). ASAP i was getting my two sniper teams into the jeeps and raced for the city as the path ahead was clear but as said, i played for too long.

first humvee taken out by RPG or SPG9, cant say exactly, from 6´o clock after the sniper team boarded, crew and snipers dead...next humvee went down the same way while racing away from the scene. 2 where too far off and where cut off so to say, picked off by the BMP later on, wich died in turn to a A10 light mission.

anyways, much went wrong, but the mission got done, the "only" humvee surviving the fled was the one with the terroris leader. well got luck there, drove it into the police building and hid it in a corner there.

soon after that army arived and i pressed these guys full throttle into the town wich left another half squad dead but the situation around the police station was getting tricky and well all this was resloved 3 or 4 turns after that. then after all was settled i didnt felt like going to the exit point, i simply hunted down more enemies and pressed a syrian surrender.

gave me a major victory; all goals accomplished but exit point goal "acceptable". was something like 500 blue to ~100 red.

after all this we still dont know, how you for example use youre humvees and how i do it. i mean there has to be a difference as persons complain bout they arent able to use humvees succesfully and another one simply uses em succesfully.

i dont know what you guys do wrong...

[Fenix]

I guess the problem with unbuttoning gunners is as follows: their quick unbuttoning doesn't match the behaviour of all other units in the game.

I'll explain myself:

You have an infantry platoon which has clear LOS on an enemy MG team (for example). The enemies haven't seen them yet, and you send your platoon on a frontal assault. As soon as they begin running, the MG would kill them in no time, so a realistic behaviour would have the leader of the platoon calling you SOB or something and refusing to acomplish that order. He's not going to commit suicide in such a ridicule way.

Nevertheless, ingame your pixel troops will begin the assault. After a few shots they will probably begin running for cover, but they DO charge the MG position.

In my opinion, gunners should work the same way. Even in a situation when common sense advises you to leave the gun unmanned and hide in the relative safety of your armor (call SOB your leader xD) , the pixel soldier should keep firing until you give him the order to button up, at least while he still has a high or average morale.

If the gunner of a Humvee hides after the first shots, then the platoon should refuse to even stand up in front of that MG.

Well, i have some problems with the language, but i hope i made myself clear

[Pandur]

i would start compareing to other vehicle crews. the other extreme are tank commanders, when they see a tank and it rotates the gun towards this guy/tank, dont think he would button up, no he waits till a 125/120mm slams into the tank, and i didnt saw any unbuttoned TC survive that so far. also they are verry resistant to rifle fire befor they dive, even when they have the 12.7mm remotely operated, and so they wouldnt even need to stay outside as its only for overwatch at all.

actually i hate! this behaviour of tank commanders on RED as BLUE side, i would love to switch humvee gunners with tank commanders for example