I.D. of weapon used by Israel

[gunnergoz]

It shows just how difficult it is to be "surgical" with weapons like these. I personally think the Israeli's, at some level, try to avoid undue loss of life among non-combatants, but at another level, they really just roll the dice and leave them (Palestinian civilians) to fend for themselves. It's a sort of "so what if they're dying, so are we" attitude that comes with years of national war exhaustion. Understandable but unfortunate. It is a situation the US should learn from, since we have, to a great extent, lost the moral upper hand in recent years.

[Tero]

It shows just how difficult it is to be "surgical" with weapons like these. I personally think the Israeli's, at some level, try to avoid undue loss of life among non-combatants, but at another level, they really just roll the dice and leave them (Palestinian civilians) to fend for themselves. It's a sort of "so what if they're dying, so are we" attitude that comes with years of national war exhaustion. Understandable but unfortunate. It is a situation the US should learn from, since we have, to a great extent, lost the moral upper hand in recent years.

Lets face the facts: the Palestinian fighters are using their civilians as, well, human shields is not a proper term since the civilians lives are not the fighters main concerns so much as the bad press they are bringing on the Israelis.

And when it comes to civilian casualties the international press is really turning a blind eye when it comes to Israeli civilian casualties when suicide bombers hit busses etc.

[gunnergoz]

Tero, the whole scene sucks. The Palestinians are fanatically irrational, the Israelis are fantastically paranoid (and with good reason) and no one there listens to anyone on the other side any more.

Even if Israel tries to not hurt civilians, the other side involves the civilians anyway, like it or not. It is a total lose-lose situation, a briar patch as they say.

I don't have any solutions, obviously - it's just deeply ironic that, no matter what is done by well-meaning people to further peace there, there is an equal and opposite force fully intent upon undermining any peace. And that is true on both sides.

And you are also correct that the international press did little when there were regular volleys of rockets and mortars being sent towards Israel, but it is equally true that the international press has done little to effectively demonstrate how Israel has systematically hemmed in the local Muslim population into smaller and smaller enclaves over the years. Too many parties benefit from continued conflict and chaos in the region and too few are willing to compromise anything to move towards a peaceful resolution.

[Stalins Organ]

I don't think thepress is turning a blind eye to Palestinian crimes - there hasn't been a suicide bomb there for a few years, and every time casualties are mentioned here both sides are always given - 1300+ Palestinians , and 13 Israelis.

However hte disparity in numbers speaks volumes.

Now as a "pragmatist" I see nothing surprising in the numbers - and they are exactly what the Palestinians want - espcuially the hundreds of civilian casualties. They know they cannot defeat Israel by themselves, therefore they sacrifice their own people to Israeli gunfire to put pressure opn outside parties - it helps fan the flames of Moslem extremism and ensures they remain the cause celebre.

How things would have been different had the Moslems taken the Palestinians into their countries in 1949, as Israel did the roughtly equal number of Jews expelled from the Moslem countries - but Moslem politics was such that they were never going to do that - the Palestinians were then, and remain now, sacrifices to restoring Dar al-Islam (Muslim territory, house of peace) to hte fold.

The world is divided into 2 areas - Dar al-Islam, and and Dar al-harb (house of war).....and htere's plenty of Moslems take that quite literally.....

[Stalins Organ]

As an aside the following is from a wargame rule writer of some note who is currently designing a set of low-scale rules for modern warfare (which I shall refrain from mentioning so as to not breach the forum rules....)

Now that a few facts are emerging (from unofficial IDF and West Bank sources) it looks like this time the Israelis got quite a lot more right than last time.

1) They achieved surprise by attacking 3 days earlier than expected, with simultaneous pre-dawn air strikes on the homes of Hammas leaders and Hammas installations before they could be evacuated.

2) They kept all the reporters and cameramen back on the border and have published nothing of their troop movements. Combined with the air strikes on Hammas command, this left the surviving Hammas leadership completely in the dark about what is going on.

3) Instead of sending untrained reservists straight into action (as in Lebanon), they gave them a week's intensive FIBUA training before committing them.

4) Despite the demonstrations in London, they had prelocated the majority of leadership, troop and logistics targets with the unstinting aid of the Palestine authority's defence forces - eager for revenge for the Hammas coup.

5) Dense fields of mines and IED in scrubland were burnt out with WP.

6) Suicide attacks were prevented by an even more ruthless than usual policy of shooting at any civilians including children that approached Israeli troops. I doubt if this was ordered explicitly, just an understanding established as to what should be done. There were no cameramen present to record it and it will be automatically denied.

7) Air targeting was not restrained by considerations of collateral damage. The guided bombs used were 1,000 and 2,000 pdrs (compared with rhe 500 pdr Paveway 4 the RAF is now limited to). Hits on a couple of mosques produced violent secondary explosions, in one case with burning rockets exploding high into the air.

8) Early on, there was an attempt to kidnap a lone Israeli soldier in a house previously cleared, a camera dog introduced into a tunnel found was heard being shot at in another house 100m away, which was then stormed. Extensive tunnels have since been found in most BUA - something I have to cover in ##### ###...

9) Leaflet drops calling on civvies to get away from Hammas sites and explosive stores produced some hurried mass evacuations from places that were then bombed producing secondary explosions.

[Rob Ross]

For info - saw a news report from the Beit Lahiya UN school in the WP photo in this thread. 1,800 refugees were there when it took two WP shells and an artillery round leaving 2 dead 14 injured. The 2 dead were kids and their 19 year old cousin had his legs blown off apparently.

Grim stuff.

Link to report: http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/gaza+the+scale+of+destruction+emerges/2906712

[Stalins Organ]

so you're saying the Israelis really need to use something better than WP if they are trying to kill civilians?:confused::eek:

[John Kettler]

This report describes something other than the aforementioned WP munition, something I've never heard of before called DIME (Dense Inert Metal Explosive), something with horrific delayed medical effects. http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200911916132228885.html Per Global Security, the technology is real, and there are indications Israel used prototype weapons on this principle in Gaza in 2006. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/dime.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[dieseltaylor]

Hmmm! Another words we make something less lethal in collateral damage terms so we can use more of them. Cute.

[Stalins Organ]

Wiki is well up to date as always - DIME

[John Kettler]

Stalin's Organist,

A well-written and informative, if disgusting, piece!

Regards,

John Kettler

[gunnergoz]

Well, the theory with these weapons is that they severely restrict the lethal radius of the bombs or rounds they are used in, making them ideal surgical strike weapons when coupled with accurate guidance.

So the complaint is that they work too well? Or that they are being used at all?

The Israelis are confronted with a foe that routinely mixes combatants with civilians for the specific effect that injuring or killing the civilians has upon world media. They are beneath contempt. That civilians are injured is directly related to the support these same civilians are giving to the Hamas and other factions that would use them as shields and sacrificial sheep.

There is enough blame to go around here but it needs to be balanced with facts that show that neither side is always right or wrong and neither side is always innocent or guilty.

[John Kettler]

gunnergoz,

There are multiple, interrelated issues here, none easy. For purposes of my post, though, I argue that, once again, weapon technology has leapt way ahead of controlling international law, in this case, the Geneva Convention. For now we have a weapon that while severely limiting collateral damage on the one hand, arguably a good thing, simultaneously creates a horrific new and very difficult to treat class of wound, and cancer-inducing at that.

The Geneva Convention banned the dum-dum bullet because of the unnecessary suffering it caused, but never envisioned a cloud of very high velocity toxic microfragments permeating an artillery or bomb injury. Ordinary munitions do a more than adequate job when it comes to chewing up flesh, but this would tax a state of the art trauma center, let alone a Gazan hospital staff operating with next to nothing. How do you go about removing all those microfragments without making things worse, yet knowing that cancer awaits the already savaged patient if these tiny nightmares aren't systematically hunted down and removed, with each wound track thoroughly debrided for the same reason? A related issue is what sort of persistent contamination may occur from use of such munitions in a highly populated area? Is it an inhalable dust, such as we find after DU use against armor, or is it something the normal body nasal filtration can keep out? If the latter, thank heaven for small favors! What happens if the material somehow gets into the water supply?

Since the U.S. itself has such munitions in development, this is a question which transcends the Gaza issue and raises, I think, profound questions about existing international law and its adequacy in the face of developments simply inconceivable to the signatories of the Geneva Convention. DIME is but one of dozens of new technologies which have taken us into realms we may or may not wish to inhabit, but ones which require the most profound and sober thought and assessments before we do.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

The human race is doomed. We seem to be more ingenious and industrious at finding new ways of killing ourselves than anything else.

Michael

[Affentitten]

gunnergoz,

What happens if the material somehow gets into the water supply?

Well given that the water supply has been sytematically demolished by the Israelis (to stop it being used by Hamas fighters), there isn't much chance of that happening. In fact, it's more likely to get into the wastewater system, since that has also been systematiclly tagetted causing huge sewage spills and discharges into the Med.

[Sergei]

This report describes something other than the aforementioned WP munition, something I've never heard of before called DIME (Dense Inert Metal Explosive), something with horrific delayed medical effects. http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200911916132228885.html Per Global Security, the technology is real, and there are indications Israel used prototype weapons on this principle in Gaza in 2006. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/dime.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

Two points.

1. That's Al Jazeera, hardly the pinnacle of reliable journalism. I usually trust them, but here they just have the view of one guy and no support to that. Media has a tendency of relying too much on hearsay when it comes to weapons.

2. "Speaking to Al Jazeera on Tuesday, Brommundt said surgeons had reported many cases where casualties had lost both legs rather than one, prompting suspicions that the Israelis were using some form of Dense Inert Metal Explosives (Dime)."

Okay, so what? My grandfather lost both legs in WW2, and so did millions of others.

[Affentitten]

The DIME thing also came up in the invasion of Lebanon in 2006. To the best of my knowledge usage there was never proven.

There were plenty of nasty things being done in Gaza by the IDF with plain old 5.56mm bullets. There is no need to resort to beating up bogey man secret weapons.

[Flanker15]

"6) Suicide attacks were prevented by an even more ruthless than usual policy of shooting at any civilians including children that approached Israeli troops. I doubt if this was ordered explicitly, just an understanding established as to what should be done. There were no cameramen present to record it and it will be automatically denied.

7) Air targeting was not restrained by considerations of collateral damage. The guided bombs used were 1,000 and 2,000 pdrs (compared with rhe 500 pdr Paveway 4 the RAF is now limited to). Hits on a couple of mosques produced violent secondary explosions, in one case with burning rockets exploding high into the air."

Are these supposed to be a joke? What's Israel's goal here, win most evil empire of the 21st century?

[Stalins Organ]

What's your problem with them?

[FAI]

Are these supposed to be a joke? What's Israel's goal here, win most evil empire of the 21st century?

It's not as if they bothered, or cared for the opinions of others.

[Tero]

It's not as if they bothered, or cared for the opinions of others.

What is more the Palestinians (Hamas) forfeited their moral high ground by stashing weapons in places of worship and deliberately firing against Israeli troops from places where they knowingly risk (ie.bank on) collateral damage.

[Affentitten]

Just as Israel banks on collateral damage and the deaths of Palestinian civilians. The idea being that the more horrible life is for them, the more distanced they will become from their leadership and the more open they will be to welcoming this year's good guys (Fatah / PLO) back in.

The only public opinion Israel cares about is it's own public and that of the Palestinians.

[Stalins Organ]

More from the same source:

IDF sources report that Hamas used cruder devices than Hezbollah, but made up for it in sheer quantity of explosives. They describe an "unimaginable" quantity of HE backed into drums or formed into shaped charges and planted into virtually every building in the Gaza strip as booby-traps set to detonate against tanks, light vehicles or infantry platoons. Many such buildings were identified because the inhabitants including women and children had climbed on to the roof. They were dealt with by a "door knocking" technique. The occupants were phoned and told to evacuate. If this produced no result, a small missile was fired into a wall corner, then after the people had left, a guided bomb dropped into the middle of the roof.

6 armoured brigade teams were used, each of mixed armour, inf, engineers and intelligence sources. Each team was allocated a squadron of attack helicopters and UAV, and each Bn had a 120mm mortar team, Spike missiles and a new building-busting tank round.

About half the 2,400 IAF attacks were on groups emplacing, firing or transporting rockets, with a sighting to shooting cycle of 90 seconds.

Battle drawings captured in one neighbourhood depicted the area defence plan, showing locations of IED and mines along every alley and in every tunnel. 2 years intelligence gathering had located hundreds of tunnels 8-16 metres deep connecting buildings in every neighbourhood. These were mainly intended for sniper infiltration.

Much of the building destruction was from big secondary explosions.

One big "unexploded" bob shown on TV lying horizontally on the floor of a house lacking tail and guidance seemed to be concrete-filled and had obviously been brought from elsewhere.

My experience of IDF information is that it rarely lies but is very selective about what it leaves out.

[gunnergoz]

I'm hearing that the Israelis did not indiscriminately drop 1000 and 2000 lb bombs, but that they used pretty large numbers of PGM's, including the new US Small Diameter Bomb, which has a 250 lb warhead for minimized damage.

Here's one take on it:

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/israel/articles/20090121.aspx

[gunnergoz]

gunnergoz,

There are multiple, interrelated issues here, none easy. For purposes of my post, though, I argue that, once again, weapon technology has leapt way ahead of controlling international law, in this case, the Geneva Convention. For now we have a weapon that while severely limiting collateral damage on the one hand, arguably a good thing, simultaneously creates a horrific new and very difficult to treat class of wound, and cancer-inducing at that.

The Geneva Convention banned the dum-dum bullet because of the unnecessary suffering it caused, but never envisioned a cloud of very high velocity toxic microfragments permeating an artillery or bomb injury. Ordinary munitions do a more than adequate job when it comes to chewing up flesh, but this would tax a state of the art trauma center, let alone a Gazan hospital staff operating with next to nothing. How do you go about removing all those microfragments without making things worse, yet knowing that cancer awaits the already savaged patient if these tiny nightmares aren't systematically hunted down and removed, with each wound track thoroughly debrided for the same reason? A related issue is what sort of persistent contamination may occur from use of such munitions in a highly populated area? Is it an inhalable dust, such as we find after DU use against armor, or is it something the normal body nasal filtration can keep out? If the latter, thank heaven for small favors! What happens if the material somehow gets into the water supply?

Since the U.S. itself has such munitions in development, this is a question which transcends the Gaza issue and raises, I think, profound questions about existing international law and its adequacy in the face of developments simply inconceivable to the signatories of the Geneva Convention. DIME is but one of dozens of new technologies which have taken us into realms we may or may not wish to inhabit, but ones which require the most profound and sober thought and assessments before we do.

Regards,

John Kettler

Thanks for the comments John, I appreciate the thoughts you are articulating.

At the same time, I recall vividly how my own father, an Army lifer and Vietnam vet, died of cancer from Agent Orange poisoning some 20 years after his exposure to it...and it wasn't even meant to be a weapon.

My point is that war has all sort of nasty ways to die in it and the fact that a new weapon brings additional chapters in the Book of Human Suffering is hardly a surprise.

For me, I'd rather see a technological advance that kills the bad guys, or leaves them dying of terminal cancer, than routinely use a weapon whose radius is so large that it kills the innocents next door or across the alley.

It would be in the application of such weapons that care would have to be required. I in no way want them used indiscriminately, where innocents may be subject to their effects. On the other hand, I don't give a whit if the Hamas or Al-Queda goons that this stuff hits, die of a horrible, lingering death. If they were legitimate targets, they are fair game and how they die, or how soon, is a secondary consideration in my mind, as long as they are neutralized.

A certain amount of ruthlessness is part of the successful prosecution of war. The reasoned humanity and civility that one demonstrates while determining when the ruthlessness is to be exercised, is what separates the decent from the profane.