M1114's and M2/M3's Post v.1.11

[Peter Panzer]

Here are a few things I have picked up on as of late...

M1114 Humvee

In v.1.11, gunners will button up almost instantly after even a few rounds in their vicinity. What's worse, they will stay down for the duration of the incoming fire. This is a useful AI behavior for AFV commanders, but it is a death sentence when applied to a Humvee crew. Keeping this primary weapon station "up" in reality is a big deal - without the ability for crews to fire small arms from the windows, it is a total ballbreaker in CMSF.

Are other folks seeing this as well?

M2/M3

Bradleys in v.1.11 will use TOW's exclusively when a "Target" order is directed toward a structure or wall. They will continue to employ ATGM's seemingly without deviation until their supply is exhausted. Is this intentional?

I have yet to see a M2/M3 utilize their coax at all post v.1.11. Can anyone else confirm this?

Thanks for sharing your observations.

[akd]

I have seen Bradleys use the coax one or two times on targets of opportunity, usually infantry running across open spaces. BMP-3 use of its PKTs is also very odd, sometimes they will fire in conjunction with the 100mm when given a "target" order, but they remain silent when a "target light" order is issued. Had a BMP-1 commander killed because he chose to use his ATGM instead of the 73mm when targeting building less than 200m away in the middle of a city. He was shot as soon as he popped his head out of the turret. The target/target light scheme simply does not work with the IFVs in the game.

The solution is to add an additional targeting command to M2a3s, M3a3 and BMP-1/2/3s. So that they refrain from using their ATGMs unless specifically instructed to do so (perhaps a "blast" command for vehicles, or simply "target heavy," "target medium," "target light"), or unless enemy armor is present.

[vincere]

Here are a few things I have picked up on as of late...

M1114 Humvee

In v.1.11, gunners will button up almost instantly after even a few rounds in their vicinity. What's worse, they will stay down for the duration of the incoming fire. This is a useful AI behavior for AFV commanders, but it is a death sentence when applied to a Humvee crew. Keeping this primary weapon station "up" in reality is a big deal - without the ability for crews to fire small arms from the windows, it is a total ballbreaker in CMSF.

Are other folks seeing this as well?

Was about to say yes; but realised the last I saw this was with 1.10 rock around block battle.

[c3k]

ooh, ooh, or a HOLD command toggled for each weapon?

See http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=83224&highlight=hold

and http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=72910&highlight=hold

Those are ideas I've floated for some time. They've been ignored. Shrug. _I_ think they'd improve the game.

Regards,

Ken

[Flanker15]

Or maybe a "Use ATGM" yes/no pop up for target? Like in CMx1.

[BlackMoria]

Damn, if that is the behavior of gunners in Humvees, there goes my ideas for a Blackhawk Down campaign that I have been mulling around on paper....

As for the Bradleys, I have noticed the behavior about them firing their TOW missiles in preference when going against buildings but I have seen them under 1.14 also use the 25mm. I am thinking that distance to target may be a factor because I recall the Bradleys using the 25mm only when the target building or wall was close

I too want to see a 'Hold Fire' option. It is very difficult to setup an ambush when the troops want to cut loose with their weapons as soon as they have eyes on the enemy.

[cmfan]

Damn, if that is the behavior of gunners in Humvees, there goes my ideas for a Blackhawk Down campaign that I have been mulling around on paper....

As for the Bradleys, I have noticed the behavior about them firing their TOW missiles in preference when going against buildings but I have seen them under 1.14 also use the 25mm. I am thinking that distance to target may be a factor because I recall the Bradleys using the 25mm only when the target building or wall was close

I too want to see a 'Hold Fire' option. It is very difficult to setup an ambush when the troops want to cut loose with their weapons as soon as they have eyes on the enemy.

Have you tried using target arcs to create an ambush zone. Just set the arcs to cover the area where you want the ambush to begin. The big limitations on this are that the lower the quality of your troops the more likely they are to ignore the arcs and open fire as opposing forces get closer. To be fair though this seems like a fair representation of what can happen in real life during a ambush.

[c3k]

BlackMoria,

To add to what cmfan just wrote, to create an ambush you set a TARGET ARC command which only encompasses your planned kill sack. Then order those units to HIDE. They should stay hidden until an enemy unit enters the arc. If you set multiple units from multiple directions to target the same zone, well, then you've got a textbook ambush.

Good luck.

Ken

[Peter Panzer]

Some follow up...

M1114 Humvee

M1114 gunners button up after a few incoming rounds impacting on the vehicle - even rounds that are in close vicinity will sometimes trigger the behavior. Gunners remain in this posture until the fire slacks off. I believe we are seeing an AI routine intended to aid the survivability of AFV commanders adversely effecting the realistic portrayal of '1114 gunners.

The primary weapon station on the '1114 must remain "up," the team's survival quite often depends on it. Gunners do not drop down at the hint of danger, in fact, it is precisely the opposite that is the case. Here are a few examples from .mil (italics are mine)...

"Humvee Gunners Set Sights on New Shield" Erik Slavin, Stars and Stripes (Oct. 2005)

Given a choice between protecting themselves by sitting or leaving the task of spotting a suicide car bomber to someone else, nearly all gunners interviewed said they would stand.

“I understand what my job is,” said Spc. Joshua Forman, 21, of Sammamish, Wash. “I understand that I could die. Once you get past that, it’s not really an issue. You come to peace with that, you can do more for your team. I’d gladly give my life to save the life of any other soldier I work with.”

"U.S., Afghan Soldiers Fight Their Way Out of an Ambush" Micah E. Clare, Army News (July 2007)

The silence was broken by the muffled sound of a dull thud in the distance, which didn't register with Sgt. Heinicke at first, because of the thick armor practically soundproofing his vehicle.

"Did you hear something up there?" Sgt. Heinicke called up to Spc. Stone in the turret.

"Um....yeah, maybe," Spc. Stone replied, leaning out of his turret so he could hear. "It might have been an explosion. I couldn't tell."

Spc. Stone quickly scanned for targets with his Mark-19 automatic grenade launcher. All he could see was a billowing column of black smoke.

...The job went to Spc. Stone, who fired off several 40mm grenade rounds onto the hilltop at a vanishing enemy....

...The enemy weapons fire had largely died down; especially after the Humvee gunners pointed their weapons towards the enemy and began firing. The rapid bursts of concussive shells hitting the insurgent's fighting positions pulverized rocks and felled trees.

M707 Recon Humvee

M707's cannot use the "Target" LOS tool in-game like their unarmed UNCON "Spy" counterparts. This greatly reduces their utility, can this please be corrected in v.1.12?

M2/M3 (BMP)

M3A3 tasked with targeting five buildings used all 12 onboard ATGM's without transitioning to the 25mm. The use of the coax versus a structure seems like an even more remote possibility. Range has no effect: 400m - TOW, 200m - TOW, 85m(!) - TOW.

Area fire only makes use of the 25mm. Again, range is not a factor: 400m, 300m, 200m, 100m - 25mm all around. Over 4,000 rounds of virtual 7.62mm and nary a shot. The '240 on a Brad is not a "reserve" weapon. "Target Light" does not change this.

As a result, if you want to conserve heavy and medium ordnance for future threats or simply suppress targets in a structure without dropping it, you are SOL.

V.1.11 jacked up the Brads (and likely the BMP's) and '1114's. Please take a closer look at this behavior and adjust accordingly for v1.12.

The solution is to add an additional targeting command to M2a3s, M3a3 and BMP-1/2/3s. So that they refrain from using their ATGMs unless specifically instructed to do so (perhaps a "blast" command for vehicles, or simply "target heavy," "target medium," "target light"), or unless enemy armor is present.

Testify, brother. I know C3k and myself have been asking for something similar for awhile, as he noted. I wonder if a broader solution like what you suggest would be more feasible to implement rather than Ken's proposal of an individual "Hold" per weapon scheme?

Of course these things are often easier to request than they are to code properly, so we will have to see what the powers that be suggest.

Thanks for taking a look everyone.

[akd]

Conserving ammo and controlling collateral damage are only some of the issues this oversight has caused with IFVs. I would consider IFVs utilizing ATGMs when they should not (and our inability to control this) a bug, as it not only limits flexibility but can affect vehicle survival and induce great player frustration. For example, this orders oversight can result in vehicles, at a minimum, being rendered harmless to the enemy as the gunner immediately attempts to reload the ATGM, a sometimes lengthy process, or worse having the gunner killed when he immediately exposes himself to reload the ATGM after firing (and it does not appear you can order them to button-up and suspend the reloading process) even when in close proximity to enemy infantry.

If you think this is annoying when using Bradelys, try to use a BMP-1 for MOUT.

[thewood]

What ever happenned to "Use Main Gun" from CM1? I know target light was supposed to supercede that, but why couldn't anything with very limited ammo have a flag that asks that question when target is directed?

[Peter Panzer]

thewood:

My first thought was some reincarnation of the "Use Main Gun" feature as well. That said, we are indebted to C3k as he has spent a bit more time thinking and lobbying about this than most of us.

Here is part of what Steve (BFC) mentioned on that subject:

Look at the BMP-3 for example. It has basically 5 major weapons choices:

100mm main gun

30mm auto cannon

ATGM (fired from main gun)

Coax MG

Hull MGs x2

Now think of how many combos of these five weapons systems can be "authorized" at any one time. 30mm cannon, ATGM only, and MGs... Coax only... all three MGs only... auto cannon only... auto cannon and MGs only... everything but the ATGM... etc., etc., etc. In other words, "Use Main Gun?" option doesn't improve things any.

You can read more about C3k's notion for a "Hold" command including Steve's (BFC) reply here (scroll down to the third post).

For example, this orders oversight can result in vehicles, at a minimum, being rendered harmless to the enemy as the gunner immediately attempts to reload the ATGM, a sometimes lengthy process, or worse having the gunner killed when he immediately exposes himself to reload the ATGM after firing (and it does not appear you can order them to button-up and suspend the reloading process) even when in close proximity to enemy infantry.

Yes, I have experienced that as well. Good point.

If neither C3k's or AKD's ideas can be reasonably implemented, I do ask that we see more of a transition of weapon systems using the two tier "Target/Target Light" menu. In v.1.11 it seems like things have been adjusted toward something of an all one system approach (i.e. buildings=ATGM's, Area Targets="Main Guns").

[akd]

thewood:

My first thought was some reincarnation of the "Use Main Gun" feature as well. That said, we are indebted to C3k as he has spent a bit more time thinking and lobbying about this than most of us.

Here is part of what Steve (BFC) mentioned on that subject:

Now let's look at this vehicle through the light-medium-heavy lens (all restrictions listed here are for the heaviest weapon to be used in the circumstance and would not prevent use of lighter weapons when appropiate):

Target Light

-area: PKTs

-infantry: PKTs

-unarmored vehicles: PKTs

-buildings: PKTs

-armor: 30mm cannon

Target

-area: 30mm cannon

-infantry: 30mm cannon

-unarmored vehicles: 30mm cannon

-buildings: 30mm cannon

-armor: 100mm cannon

Target Heavy

-area: 100mm cannon

-infantry: 100mm cannon

-unarmored vehicles: 100mm cannon

-buildings: 100mm cannon/ATGM depending on range

-armor: ATGM

And of course the AI could simply employ another weapon if target range or strength dictates. The BMP-3 is probably the most complex ground-based weapon suite that is likely to exist in the game now or in the future, unless the BMD-3 (PKT/bow 30mm GL and RPK/30mm Cannon/ATGM) or BMP-T (PKT/30mm GLs/30mm cannons/ATGMs) make their way into the game.

Scheme works fine for Bradleys, solving all problems there:

Target Light

-armor: 25mm cannon

-all other targets: M-240C

Target

-armor: TOW

-all other targets: 25mm cannon

Target Heavy

-all targets: TOW

and is still applicable to a typical tank:

Target Light: 7.62mm

Target: 12.7mm

Target Heavy: main gun

Could also answer some issues with specialist infantry, as well, e.g. a sniper section

Target Light: sniper rifle only at all ranges

Target: sniper rifle at long range, all weapons at close range (say 300m)

Target Heavy: all weapons at all ranges

or now with more restrictive use of grenade launchers by the AI, a standard infantry squad:

Target Light: all small-caliber weapons

Target: all small-caliber weapons and GLs

Target Heavy: all rifle-caliber weapons, GLs and portable anti-tank/anti-bunker munitions

[Skinnedpuppy]

A better solution would be to have a check box against each weapon system that was cleared to fire. These could be set per vehicle and as a global setting to simulate SOP/ROE.

[Peter Panzer]

Hello everyone:

I am kicking this one back to the top as I am hoping a tester/BFC will take an honest look at the AI behavior noted in my original post. This stuff is near 100% reproduceable and hamstrings the use of Humvees and makes IFV use rather clunky.

The side issue of creating more varied options for the weapon systems of IFV's in the UI is a great long term suggestion, but my initial point was to see more of a tweak to the existing behaviors related to these two classes of vehicles.

Summary:

Keep Humvee gunners "up" even if dire risk to their digital person is involved. The "button up" behavior is great for AFV commander's, but is misapplied to light vehicle gunners (you may want to check the MTVR gunners as well).

Adjust the "weapon use mix" of IFV's as it currently seems to weigh greatly toward absolutes (i.e. strict use of ATGM's for structures, autocannons for area target). Something in v.1.11 seems to have effected this balance as previously it was possible for IFV's to employ a blend of weapon systems versus targets.

These pre v.1.11 outcomes seemed far more plausible:

Structures:

Target= mostly autocannon, occasional ATGM

Target Light=mostly GPMG, occasional autocannon

Area Target:

Target= mostly autocannon, occasional GPMG

Target Light=mostly GPMG, occasional autocannon

Allow the M707 to use the "Target" and "Cover Arc" tools just as the UNCON spies currently do. Guessing you have LOS isn't desireable for an unarmed recon vehicle that depends on concealment for survival. Scanning sectors via arcs wouldn't hurt either.

My genuine thanks, as it would be great to see an adjustment made for v.1.12 in these areas.

[Patrocles]

A better solution would be to have a check box against each weapon system that was cleared to fire. These could be set per vehicle and as a global setting to simulate SOP/ROE.

An excellent idea imho!

[Flanker15]

I wouldn't have the 1114's gunner up all the time, you can lose your entire crew and passengers very quickly like that (1114 gunners get killed very easily and then the next person in the vehicle will take over only to get killed etc).

I've noticed that higher skilled units won't button up so quickly.

[Flanker15]

The idea of being able to turn off weapons has already been considered and rejected because battlefont doesn't want a game where you have to tell your units not to use weapons. They want to make it so you tell your units to use them.

Another idea is to have a "Target Missile" order like the "Target heavy" idea, Which uses the ATGM of unit with one or for infantry it uses their RPGs or AT4s etc... I think that ATGM and RPGs are an important enough weapon to have their own order (eg only shoot your RPG at a tank instead of everyone standing up and giving away the posistion before the RPG is ready).

So for the BMP3 you'd get

Target Missile: uses the AT-10

Target: uses the 100mm or 30mm

Target light: uses Mgs

The TacAi needs to decide which weapon or ammo to use if there is a choice since that is the units job in reality, you are there to give general directives.

[Skinnedpuppy]

Point noted regard's BF's response, the way you are suggesting is far more complex imo and is just the same way of doing what I had suggested.

I alos don't belive there are enough blank spaces in the orders box to achevive this way of doing things. (To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if the UI as it is undergoes a substantial update for CM: Normandy)

But hey these are the guys that gave us back the blue bar so anythings possible!

[Peter Panzer]

Flanker15:

I've noticed that higher skilled units won't button up so quickly.

You raise a fair assumption, so I took another look to be sure I wasn't completely nuts.

Veteran, Regular and Green gunners go into bedwetting mode after two or three rounds impacting off of their vehicles - consistently. Sometimes even a passing round will make them button up. I detect no "experience" difference at all after playing through several turns of a test scenario I created. Further, I very seldom use the "Crack" and "Elite" settings, nor do I think one should have to in order to see realistic play.

I wouldn't have the 1114's gunner up all the time, you can lose your entire crew and passengers very quickly like that

I'm not picking on you, but here's another way to lose the whole crew - check that - a whole platoon in short order...

Have a few AKM rounds pop off the hood of the '1114 resulting in the eyes and ears of the vehicle gibbering in the back seat. Rinse and repeat to the entire platoon and watch as two guys with AK's lay waste to four guntrucks because their primary weapon stations are presently undermodeled.

Bonus scenario: pair the instant button up behavior with the current troops-in-buildings-are-invisible-until-they-fire-and-gain-initiative-100%-of-the-time routine for a real treat. To their credit, I think BFC is already examining the later.

You know, the situation above isn't even fun if your playing the REDFOR - I want to be rewarded for using realistic tactics as they resolve themselves against the best AI behavior the developers can muster. That has always been the appeal of the Combat Mission games for me.

V1.11 seems to have made IFV weapon and Humvee gunner behavior overly simplified, just as v.1.10 made pathing take a step back. 'Less any of you have the wrong impression, all these issues need is a tweak to restore them to their previously more solid feel, not a total overhaul.

Skinnedpuppy:

A better solution would be to have a check box against each weapon system that was cleared to fire.

To be honest, that strikes me as unwieldy. AKD's solution seems to fit the "flow" of the UI and accomplish the goal of granting the IFV's the flexibility they need to accurately mimic their real life counterparts.

Again though, I am only asking that the pre v1.11 "weapons blend," warts and all, be restored as even it was superior to the current behavior. The current system of absolutes is too restrictive and unrealistic.

[Lanzfeld]

Now let's look at this vehicle through the light-medium-heavy lens (all restrictions listed here are for the heaviest weapon to be used in the circumstance and would not prevent use of lighter weapons when appropiate):

Target Light

-area: PKTs

-infantry: PKTs

-unarmored vehicles: PKTs

-buildings: PKTs

-armor: 30mm cannon

Target

-area: 30mm cannon

-infantry: 30mm cannon

-unarmored vehicles: 30mm cannon

-buildings: 30mm cannon

-armor: 100mm cannon

Target Heavy

-area: 100mm cannon

-infantry: 100mm cannon

-unarmored vehicles: 100mm cannon

-buildings: 100mm cannon/ATGM depending on range

-armor: ATGM

And of course the AI could simply employ another weapon if target range or strength dictates. The BMP-3 is probably the most complex ground-based weapon suite that is likely to exist in the game now or in the future, unless the BMD-3 (PKT/bow 30mm GL and RPK/30mm Cannon/ATGM) or BMP-T (PKT/30mm GLs/30mm cannons/ATGMs) make their way into the game.

Scheme works fine for Bradleys, solving all problems there:

Target Light

-armor: 25mm cannon

-all other targets: M-240C

Target

-armor: TOW

-all other targets: 25mm cannon

Target Heavy

-all targets: TOW

and is still applicable to a typical tank:

Target Light: 7.62mm

Target: 12.7mm

Target Heavy: main gun

Could also answer some issues with specialist infantry, as well, e.g. a sniper section

Target Light: sniper rifle only at all ranges

Target: sniper rifle at long range, all weapons at close range (say 300m)

Target Heavy: all weapons at all ranges

or now with more restrictive use of grenade launchers by the AI, a standard infantry squad:

Target Light: all small-caliber weapons

Target: all small-caliber weapons and GLs

Target Heavy: all rifle-caliber weapons, GLs and portable anti-tank/anti-bunker munitions

This is the BEST idea I have seen!

[Peter Panzer]

Ha. You must have really been crawling through the back channels to have dredged this one up!

The idea of improved fire controls keeps coming up again and again. Frankly, I think it would be a serious drag if we had to wait for the Nomandy game before an improved system was implemented. Especially given the impression that the modern systems seem to demand a "light, medium, heavy" or "hold" option more than their WWII ancestors.

You can see the same cast of characters pleading their case here.

[c3k]

Yeah, this is a recurring theme.

Without adding more to what I've posted on this, I'd LOVE to see another change. Right now if my Bradley (for example) runs out of TOW's, the combat buttons change. Now, let's see if I can remember this... To fire a TOW, I use TARGET. When I run out of TOW's, the TARGET button STILL WORKS! Oh, that's right, the TARGET LIGHT button disappears when the TARGET weapon system no longer works. Grrrrrrrrrrr.

Ken

[Lanzfeld]

c3k,

For what it is worth, I do very much like your "Hold" idea as well. I have listened to Steves argument against the "Hold" idea and, while I am NOT a programmer, I think your solution is slick and intuitive. I wish they would change it for us but I take what they give.

Anyway, it sounds as if Steve may try to change it a little in 1.2?