Michael Wittman's Demise - did we find the answer?

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Gpig:

EDIT: But if Kingfish is going to make an updated version of this battle, where do I pre-order!

No need to. There is already a (IMO) perfect recreation of this battle - "Cintheaux-Totalize" by the Desert Fox. You can pick it up at Der Kessel. The original is a CMBO scenario, but I am 99.9% sure he converted it to CMAK.

Someone (Moon? Rune?) did a CMBO battle called "tank warning?" where the terrain was VERY open. And for the most part it was. But there is some text in NO HOLDING BACK that describes hedgerows and covered approaches for portions of the 12 SS counterattack.

You are probably thinking of "August bank holiday" by Franko, who by the way did design an Op called "tank warning' but that depicted some obscure, small-scale tank skirmish somewhere in Russia - Prokhorovka something or other.

E-mail me if you want the CMBO version of ABH. I believe Treeburst is about to release a CMAK conversion with some slight tweaks added in.

[Gpig]

Hi Kingfish!

***SPOILER WARNING***

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I opened up Cintheaux-Totalize and had a look. It sure looks great. MASSIVE battle. But it does have a few major differences from the description of the battle in NO HOLDING BACK. (Though I'm sure Desert-Fox has built a fantasitc battle.)

For instance, Gaumesnil was reported as not being held by the Germans (save for a few individual stragglers). And Radley-Walters set up his Sqn prior to the German counter-attack. (Not the case in this scenario.)

Also, the Poles did not play a part in this battle, nor did any other Phase 2 Allied formations. Nor was there any CAS. (Not the case in this scenario.)

But of course, I get the impression that Desert-Fox tried to make a battle that gave you the "feel" of things happening. Also, he had read through a HELL of a lot more source material than I have (me basing my comments on ONE book).

Is Desert-Fox still around? I love the map he did, it looks perfect. I'm wondering if I could have his permission to do a NO HOLDING BACK version of the battle, utilizing his excellent map. (just for fun).

Gpig

[Kingfish]

Just a guess, but what I think DF did was get in as much of that August 8th battle as possible into a 60-turn scenario, so a few things are not exactly as described in the reference materials, both in time and location.

Note that with the exception of a few padlocked units in Gaumesnil, most German units in that hamlet are able to redeploy further back into the German setup zone near Cintheaux. This gives you the option of either recreating the initial fight for Gaumesnil, or moving the troops back as though they were stragglers from the RAF bombings, but reorganized into platoon formations. Meyer describes how he personally rallied these shocked survivors as they retreated past him at Cintheaux.

Is Desert-Fox still around? I love the map he did, it looks perfect. I'm wondering if I could have his permission to do a NO HOLDING BACK version of the battle, utilizing his excellent map. (just for fun).

He is, and had given me permission recently to use several of his maps in some of my scenarios (although not Cintheaux-Totalize). Look here.

BTW, while you are asking for permission also ask him to finish up his operation Perch pack. He already completed the morning battle, the one where Wittman goes on a rampage, but there are another half-dozen scenarios to go. The maps are the best CMBO normandy maps I've seen.

[Gpig]

Thanks, Kingfish.

I've emailed Desert-Fox.

[Michael Dorosh]

Hello gents - just got this from Brian Reid who has asked me to post this for everyone's edification (thanks, Brian).

As the author of No Holding Back, I am gratified by the attention my book has received on this forum. I must add that I have seen nothing posted here dating back to the initial question raised by Michael Dorosh that would cause me to change my mind regarding my conclusions. As those of you that have read my appendix which addresses the death of Michael Wittmann will know, I have been able to refute the oft-repeated claim that he fell prey to a Typhoon based on primary evidence, that is the RAF operations log books for 8 August 1944. The only three tanks claimed by 2 Tactical Air Force on that day were well away from the area in question.

Regarding the Allied armoured units, three regiments claim Tigers as a result of this engagement; 144 Regiment Royal Armoured Corps - one; 1 Northamptonshire Yeomanry - three; and the Sherbrooke Fusilier (no 's') Regiment - two, for a total of six, against five actually knocked out. Their positions can be seen on the map posted on this forum.

I still am firm in my belief that W fell to either of the latter two units, with my personal preference based on the evidence, and not on nationality, being the SFR. However I can not state so without reservation. A few weeks after No Holding Back hit the street, I had the opportunity to discuss the engagement once again with Brigadier General Radley-Walters (retired). Regrettably "Rad" is in poor health, but still mentally alert. He confirmed the following points I made in the appendix:

a. While he feels his squadron got Wittmann, he emphasized that the important thing was that the German counter-attack failed.

b. That Wittmann drove into the sights of one of his Fireflies does not mean the SFR was in any way better than the two British units. It was a matter of chance.

Now, regarding the map and the depiction of Gaumesnil as a blob rather than as a collection of individual buildings, I am afraid that was my decision, taken in the interests of time in a response to a query from Christopher Johnson, my map maker.

As for the information available to Bovington raised in another post, as noted the SFR headquarters half-track was destroyed by errant USAAF bombs. As well, the main headquarters of its parent formation, 2 Canadian Armoured Brigade, was also hit in the same incident. Furthermore, the brigade commander, who had moved forward during that night in his tactical headquarters, had been wounded by a bullet from a German straggler near Point 122 at 0630 that morning after he had dismounted from his Sherman. As a result both war diaries are less than complete. After all, the first priority that day was killing Germans, not reconstructing records for posterity. Thus, the engagement had gone unrecorded for several decades, and Rad had only realized its import in a conversation with Hubert Meyer on the actual ground in the 1980s. I have a transcript of a tape made by Rad regarding the battle, but have only provided it to the Canadian Forces Directorate of History and Heritage.

I would be delighted if any of you would care to game any of the engagements in my book for non-commercial purposes. All I ask is that you please credit your source while doing so.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Brian Reid

[Andreas]

Mr. Reid appears to be not only a first-class researcher, but also a thoroughly nice chap.

[Gpig]

Thank you Mr. Reid! Well done.

Gpig

[Bigduke6]

Hear hear. And thanks to Mr. Dorosh, for bringing Reid into the discussion!

[Kingfish]

On a related note, I found this article while looking for info on another battle. Unfortunately, there is very little mention of the German counterattack (Paragraph 65).

Edit: Scroll down to the bottom for some nice OOB info on Op Totalize. Also, I would kill to have access to the reference maps.

[ August 22, 2005, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: Kingfish ]

[WineCape]

Good snippets! Thanks Michael/Brian.

[roqf77]

fair play. looks like this will never be laid to rest.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by roqf77:

fair play. looks like this will never be laid to rest.

Parts of it will. The mythical air logs seem to indicate that no tanks were destroyed by tactical aircraft on that day. Otherwise, whether it was The Sherbrookes or the Northants, well, someone got him and no one really knew or cared that day where Wittman was.

[jtcm]

Br. Reid's done his primary research in the sources : that's what gives him authority, and not smug pronouncements about "we in the family of military historians". Well worth noting.

[Sergei]

Who gives a sheit, anyway? There's far more important questions in the history of mankind to be answered than how one German soldier died in 1944, which can reveal nothing essential about anything important.

[Gpig]

I'd guess that it would at LEAST be as important as a "sheit." Maybe even ranking up there with "a rats ass." But . . . opinions differ.

Personally, I find it all quite interesting. The achievements of the British and Canadians versus the Tigers. The poor tactics of the German counterattack. The cult of personality that has arisen for Wittman. And the fact that NOBODY on the allied side even Knew who Wittman was, until the next year.

Wittman who?

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by Gpig:

Personally, I find it all quite interesting. The achievements of the British and Canadians versus the Tigers. The poor tactics of the German counterattack. The cult of personality that has arisen for Wittman. And the fact that NOBODY on the allied side even Knew who Wittman was, until the next year. Wittman who?

You're kidding they didn't know until the following year, didn't Ultra tell them something? BTW I have in a Villers-Bocage book (published in French and English in 2003) by a Henri Marie with plenty of good pics, descriptions and maps has some shots that were take of Michael Wittmann and others of the SS 101st sPz Btln taken on the 2nd of June 1944 by a war correspondent (Scheck) for his article "Six Tiger commanders destroy nearly 3 tank brigades" put in what's descibed as a soldiers newspaper " Wacht am Kanal". Also has a series taken of Villers-Bocage soon after the battle of 13th-14th of June 1944 that provided a colour cover for the "Signal" magazine issue no.16 for some time late 1944. With all that propaganda floting around surely the Allies must have gaied the intelligence and broadcasted it for raising their own troops morale. :confused:

Unfortunately Henri Marie gets a bit confused saying that first that it is thought that Wittmann and his Tigers had been attacked east of Cintheaux by 5 Shermans of "A" Squadron 1st Northhamptonshire Yeomanry , 33rd Armoured Brigade but then says that according to eyewitnesses Wittmanns Tiger was hit by rockets from a Typhoon attacking the Panzer from the rear! :confused:

I think I know who he is referring to as his eyewitness but he doesn't give any real detail about Wittmanns' demise for this threads purposes. Doesn't have the picture of 007 but plenty for Villers-Bocage with plenty of information for that of course as well.

[ August 24, 2005, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

some shots that were take of Michael Wittmann and others of the SS 101st sPz Btln taken on the 2nd of June 1944 by a war correspondent

:confused:

[Michael Dorosh]

Sorry, was Wittman a squadron or battalion commander? Why would an Ultra message refer to a subunit commander by name?

[Andreas]

He was an acting battalion commander when he died.

I think what Gpig means is that it was not known to the Commonwealth unit that bagged his Tiger who they got. That does not mean that Wittmann was a complete unknown in the British Army, since e.g. his Signal article may well have found its way into the foreign press.

All the best

Andreas

[Brian Reid]

While Wittmann may have been known to certain elements in Allied intelligence, as Andreas points out, he was an unknown quantity to the Allied troops he was facing. I have read the First Canadian Army intelligence summaries for the Normandy campaign, and his name does not appear in any of them. Ditto for Ultra, and if his name had appeared in this product, without another source, it could not have been disseminated in any case.

Let's face it. He was an acting battalion commander and, as such, was of little import in the big scheme of things. It fell to a later generation to elevate him to near mythical status. Still, he was a good soldier who met a soldier's fate.

[Andreas]

Mr. Reid - let me be the first to toady up to you and point out how much I enjoyed your book. I hope you sell enough copies of it to get just rich enough to want to publish the already eagerly awaited (by me at least) follow-up on TRACTABLE, but not rich enough to quit researching for a retirement of leisure, as that would deprive me of another probably excellent read.

Welcome to the forum.

With kind regards

Andreas

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Gpig:

I'd guess that it would at LEAST be as important as a "sheit."

Sure, but who'd actually GIVE a sheit? I need some for my rose bushes.

You're right, it's interesting. So is the history of the body of Pamela Anderson, yet I don't think that either of them are really worth THAT much discussion and even research. Who placed the mine that crippled my grandfather, is much more important!

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sergei:

yet I don't think that either of them are really worth THAT much discussion and even research. Who placed the mine that crippled my grandfather, is much more important!

So what are you waiting for?

[JonS]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

You're kidding they didn't know until the following year, didn't Ultra tell them something?

You seem to be badly mis-informed about the kind of information that came out of ULTRA, and what it was used for.

[JonS]

BTW...

Mr Reid,

thanks for your book, and sorry that the only discussion about it (so far) seems to have bogged down it this Wittman sideshow. I haven't had a chance to start reading it yet, but am keenly looking forward to it.

Best Regards

Jon Sowden