Michael Wittman's Demise - did we find the answer?

[Los]

Kingfish,

Please put General Freyberg on your list of souls to call up, as I'd still like to know why it took him so long to stop worrying about a seaborne invasion and really pitch in against those pesky Germans at Maleme.

Los

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PawBroon:

He got killed because he was overconfident.

Same for the Red Baron....

This wasn't the case for the Red Baron, and I don't see evidence to support this for Wittman.

The Red Baron was worn out. He got careless. He got suckered in to a low-flying chase over enemy lines, and worst of all, he forgot to check behind him - the first rule of airfighting. His demise was sealed by Australian gunners on the ground, but the fact that he didn't break off once Brown was on the scene kind of indicates, to me, as far as the evidence I've read will take us, that the Baron was simply careless.

He had been fighting far too long, and he never recovered from his head wound.

Or, if you prefer, his luck simply ran out.

If Wittman was bagged at 800 metres by a Firefly, I am not sure how that leads one to the presumption he was overconfident. I would suspect that like Richtofen, he simply ran out of luck - the key ingredient an ace possesses, for if luck is against you, so is everything else. </font>

[Gpig]

Originally posted by Breakthrough:

It was a Firefly commanded by a Sgt. Gordon of the Fyfe and Forfar Yeomanry.

In the new book, NO HOLDING BACK, Operation Totalize, Normandy, August 1944 - (By Brian Reid) the authour makes a pretty tight case for a Canadian from A Sqn of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers claiming Wittman's Tiger as KO'd.

This book also places Sgt. Gordon (and trooper Elkins) with 1 Northhamptonshire Yeomanry, not the Fyfe and Fofar (unless they are one and the same).

Check it out! It's an interesting study.

Gpig

[Kingfish]

The (2nd) Fife and Fofar Yeomanry was part of the British 11th armored division, which did not participate in Totalize.

[roqf77]

well, bovington official allied documentation. and that of the germans. including a tank crew from one of the tanks that got knocked out claimed it was the british. not the canadians.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Gpig:

Originally posted by Breakthrough:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It was a Firefly commanded by a Sgt. Gordon of the Fyfe and Forfar Yeomanry.

In the new book, NO HOLDING BACK, Operation Totalize, Normandy, August 1944 - (By Brian Reid) the authour makes a pretty tight case for a Canadian from A Sqn of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers claiming Wittman's Tiger as KO'd.

This book also places Sgt. Gordon (and trooper Elkins) with 1 Northhamptonshire Yeomanry, not the Fyfe and Fofar (unless they are one and the same).

Check it out! It's an interesting study.

Gpig </font>

[roqf77]

well. the case for the canadians ay be solid. but it has been explained to me that it is a near certainty that it was the british. i mean the tank was recovered in los of the british positions. not the canadians. the patrols path would of taken it past them too. did they knock out tanks to? maybe they knockod out of tiger tanks? and thought it was wittman.

but of course you cant be 100% sure about alot of things.

[Gpig]

Aye, Michael. I'm not saying it's certain. In fact, I did write "makes a pretty tight case" above.

I'll be the first to admit that ALL I know about the topic has been gleaned from Reid's book AND what I've read here (BFC forum). So that should put my comments in perspective.

In the other thread (in the CMAK forum) "fences and walls," I stated that "This book does put forward a great case for the above being true (Canadian claim on Wittman's tank). But like the rest, it is no sure thing."

Just wanted to be clear. (Also, I plead guilty for wanting to have a bit of fun.)

roqf77, the chapter covering the counterattack and Appendix E of Reid's book, shed some new light on the events. But he also states that nothing is 100% sure.

If you're interested, I could type up the chapter referred to (or at least the relevant bits).

Gpig

[Kingfish]

Gpig,

Since you have the book (and I don't :mad: ) can you tell me if it states where the Canadian tanks were deployed when they bagged Wittman?

The reason I ask is because there is so much evidence, both physical and eyewitness accounts, that point towards the 1st Northhamptonshire Yeomanry as being the likely culprits.

AIUI, the Caen-Falaise road was the boundary line for the two attacking divisions of phase 1 of Op Totalize, which puts the 51st Div and attached 1st NY to the east near St. Aignan de Cramesnil. Wittman's troop advanced parallel to this road, and thus would have had their right flank exposed to the 1st NY. German accounts describe taking fire from the right, and British accounts describe firing on Tigers advancing up the road.

[JonS]

I got it yesterday (w00t!!1!), and had a quick browse through that appendix, funnily enough.

Basically, Reids positon is that

1) Wittman was closest to the road, and over 1000yds (metres?) from the 1NY posns when his tank was KO'd

2) Fireflies accuracy dropped off markedly after 1000yds (metres?)

3) the relevant Canadian unit (SFR, IIRC) were 'in depth', and to the left as looked at from the german perspective, with the 1NY closer and on the Tigers right. LOS from the SFR to the place where the tigers was KO'd was blocked

4) BUT, the Canadian regt CO (?Radley-Walters?) had pushed two fireflies forward on 'his' side of the road (the west side) to a sort-of hull-down position behind a wall. In this position they were approximately parallel with the 1NY

5) this put them within range of Wittmans tiger in the position it was KO'd, and more to the point made, them the closest CW tanks to that particular Tiger.

6) CW tankers were trained to engage the closest threat, so it'd make sense for the two SFR 'flies to have engaged Wittman first, and equally it'd make sense for the 1NY to engage the other Tigers first, which were closer to them.

7) Unfortunately, the relevant SFR records were detroyed in the short-bombing by the 8th AF that occurred about an hour later, so there is no way to really check that side of the story

Regards

JonS

[Gpig]

Those ARE the main points.

A little bit more, directly from the book (pg. 414):

"Radley-Walters consistently has maintained that he moved part of his squadron, including two Fireflys, into an ambush position behind a stone wall in the area of Gaumesnil. In the ensuing engagement, one of the Fireflys knocked out a Tiger that was moving north just east of the Route Nationale, while he claimed a SP gun that was travelling along the road as destroyed. (This is from the authours interview with Radley-Walters in Jan 2002.)

His entire account in the book is as follows (pg. 420):

As for the Sherbrookes, as we have seen any logged radio reports of the battle were detroyed when its regimental headquarters half-track was destroyed by an American bomb later that same afternoon. Howwever the squadron commander, Major Sydney Radley-Walters, has recorded the events surrounding his squadron's part in the action of 8 August. His account begins after the series of local counterattacks which perhaps started as early as 0830 hours, were defeated.

"I decided that I should move forward to Gaumesnil and be in position to support the Royals [Royal Regiment of Canada] when they were ordered to capture the village. At approximately 1030 hours I left the woods and skirted the woods to the left until I reached the railway line, then turned south past La Jalousie until we reached the rear of Gaumesnil. I was able to get good cover during this move and had right flank protection from the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry and my #1 Troop as I moved the Squadron south behind the bush at Gaumesnil. The village was small but at its eastern edge near the Caen [-Falaise] Highway was a large chateau with a tall stone and cement wall completely around the property giving good fire positions to the east and south-east. That stone wall was still there the last time I visited Gamesnil in 1993, however, the chateau was destroyed.

[T]o the rear there was a large wooded area which gave good protection from view. As best as I can remember, I had eight tanks left with me and two were equipped with 17-pounder guns. We took up defensive positions about the farm and made holes in the stone wall so we were covered from view but could observe any targets coming north on the Caen-Falaise Highway and in the fields to the east of it.

I recall the woods to the rear of the village and the hedgerows around the village gave good cover, so moving into this location and taking up positions behind the stone wall, and around the village was not a problem. It was approximately 1115 hours when the Squadron was settled in its position. Except for a few individual German stragglers, the village was not occupied.

At noon we could see movement to the east of Cintheaux. There was a long hedgerow that ran east from the village out into the fields and our artillery was shelling this area and the village when this movement was spotted. It is my recollection that is was somewhere between 1215 and 1230 hours when the attack started ...... In our area around Gaumesnil the visibility, I recall, was thick with smoke and the German attack was supported by mortars and artillery as they moved parallel with the Highway towards Point 122. It is my recollection that the attack moved as a group with five Tigers leading the group well spaced with four at the front and the fifth leading a number of Mk IVs and half-tracks with Jagdpanzers.

One of the Tigers was running close to the highway beside Gaumesnil followed by two Jagdpanzers advancing on the main highway ...

When we saw the German attack coming in, I just kept yelling, "Hold off! Hold off!" unitl they got reasonably close. We opened fire at about 500 yards. The lead tank, the one closest to the road, was knocked out. Behind it were a couple of SPs. I personally got one of the SPs right on the Caen-Falaise Raod.

The other Tigers were engaged not only by my Squadron, but also by two Fireflys from B Squadron that had moved over to La Jalousie when the counter-attack started. Once we started to fire, the German column turned to the north-east and headed for the wooded area south of St. Aignan [de Cramesnil] ...... It is my recollection that we destroyed two Mk IVs before the rear of the German group veered too far to the east ...... When the action was over we claimed the Tiger beside the highway, a second Tiger which was at the rear of the advancing column, two Mk IVs and two SPs.

I'll scan the map later and add it to the thread.

The map is very informative as well.

Gpig

[ August 17, 2005, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Gpig ]

[roqf77]

very interesting. however bovington have this info as well. and still believe it to be 1 ny.

as they dont recall any sp's i believe, only tiger tanks. also they claim to have engaged the tigers from about 800 yards and slightly over, this fits there position in. lastly the 17 pounder as jon states does lose accuaracy at that range but only with discarding sabot ammo, with apcbc which the tiger was killed with was perfectly accurate infact more accurate than most.

it seems like alot of german tanks got caught up in a well placed ambush, so there will be alot of confusion. i mean there were five tigers knocked out the british claim 3 the canadians claim 2. and the germans claim they were engaged by the british(wittmans group) and were in a group of 3 tiger tanks. but obviously you cannot be 100% sure.

[Michael Dorosh]

I sent a link to this thread to Brian Reid, who authored the latest look at Wittman's demise and whose work is quoted above. He could shed no light for me on the identity of the mysterious P51D, but - I hope I can safely say without betraying a confidence - P51D's statements in this thread have not caused Mister Reid to revise his thinking on this historical episode. Though if he wanted to post any additional thoughts, I think he'd be more welcome than our mysterious friend...

[roqf77]

it wouldnt surpise me if p-51 d was lewis.

[Gpig]

Here is a scan of the map, better detailing the area of the engagement. This is straight out of the book NO HOLDING BACK by Brian Reid. (and I hope I don't get in too much trouble for this.)

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/725/deathridemap8qo.jpg' alt='deathridemap8qo.jpg'>

[Michael Dorosh]

Can't think of a better reference for creating a scenario from; damn, even the contour lines are in there. Now if only they had included individual buildings...but that is minor, eh?

So, where's Kingfish?

[Gpig]

No kidding. I've already tooled around with laying it out in the editor. It works great.

EDIT: But if Kingfish is going to make an updated version of this battle, where do I pre-order!

Someone (Moon? Rune?) did a CMBO battle called "tank warning?" where the terrain was VERY open. And for the most part it was. But there is some text in NO HOLDING BACK that describes hedgerows and covered approaches for portions of the 12 SS counterattack.

As for the details of the map, I have a question. What does the widening of the railroad tracks signify? Does it mean there is a siding/double set of tracks? Or does it mean for the stretch of tracks so indicated, there is a grade (up or down)?

Also, where the tracks cross the La Jalousie - Quarry road, there is some kind of "encirclement" around a portion of the tracks. Anyone know what that means?

THanks,

Gpig

[ August 18, 2005, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Gpig ]

[JonS]

Gpig,

the bit to the W of Cintheaux is a cutting (embankments on either side of the track). The bit further north near the quarry is a built up area, to keep the tracks level as it crosses a wee valley.

So; dug down, and built up.

Jon

[Gpig]

Excellent! Thank you sir!

Gpig

[JonS]

No problem

BTW, looking at that map, I realise my bullet point listing above is a bit skew-wiff. Compare what I wrote with the map, and make your own deductions about where my memory failed me ...

[Gpig]

You mean that the SFR A Sqn was actually a bit farther SOUTH than 1 NY, instead of parallel with them?

(Also, he had a squadron - 9 tanks incl his own - with him in Gaumesnil. Two of which were Fireflys. But a further 2 Fireflys of B Sqn SFR scooted on down towards La Jalousie once the counter attack started.

Gpig

[JonS]

Yeah, it was the two B Sqn flies I was thinking of, and completely forgot Rads posn in Gaumesnil. I was trying to picture the map in my head, and remembered that blob as infantry for some reason. Anyway, Rad's tanks were certainly in the right posn to deal some destruction from the flank - especially when the Tiggers rotated turrets to engage 1NY.

roqf77 - some of the Tiggers were within 800yds of 1NY as Bovington state ... but 007 doesn't seem to be one of them.

[Wicky]

I scoured http://www.evidenceincamerashop.co.uk to see if they had the aerial photo that was taken and used for the map but no joy. All they seem to have are shots of Caen taken before D-Day.

A contemporary view looking towards the Church in St Aignan-de-Cramesnil.

If somone makes a scenario from that map I'd really like a copy

[roqf77]

maybe true. like i said im not 100% sure. and i have not read this book. but the germans and britisah after action reports match up almost exactly.

The british knocked out 3 tigers and the canadian 2.

the wintess to wittmans death was in the group of tiger tanks. again there were people who claimed to see wittman bombed by a typhoon, so reports cannot be relied on.

[JonS]

Originally posted by roqf77:

The british knocked out 3 tigers and the canadian 2.

Yep - no problem with that. And I'm fairly sure Reid covers that same ground. 1NY got the three closest to them, and the SFR got the two closest to them, which happened to include 007, though of course they neither knew nor especially cared who the commander was.