UI suggestion for Artillery

[c3k]

Guys,

I've been trying to articulate my ideas on what I think would be an improvement in the artillery UI. Note: for those who are sensitive to any criticism of CM:SF, STOP NOW!! If you continue, I will be forced to assail you with notices like, "This does not mean it's a bug!", and "I don't think the UI, as is, is a game-breaker!", and "This is FEEDBACK to the PLAYER, not MORE CONTROL for the OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE!" and similar warnings...

Okay, now we just have the serious forum browsers left. Whew.

Right now we get artillery support feedback in this form:

For different set of support, we get this:

To me, the drawback to this style is simple: I have no friggin' idea how many times I can call on this unit!

I've highlighted the grenade symbols in both the images. Why does the 81mm graphic leave space on the left grenade graphic, but add a single bar on the right? Is that a heavier round? What's going on there? With the 155mm, do we actually get MORE rounds than the 81mm? That doesn't seem true from my experience, yet the 155 has more bars of ammo. (Note: I am willing to call down, separately, all rounds from each artillery icon and do a crater count if someone thinks the 155 gets more rounds than the 81 mortar!)

How many of these rounds would be left if I used 1 gun, Light/quick, versus, say, 2 guns at medium/long?

Lest anyone think I'm obsessing over round-count, I don't care about the actual number! I am trying to get a grasp on the proportion of available rounds each type of mission uses up.

Does medium/medium use up 1/2 of the rounds no matter how large the area target is? If I select "Linear Target" and have a 100 meter line, will medium/medium drop the same number of rounds as Linear Target with a 1,000 meter line? I have no idea.

My idea for feedback to the player:

The crux of this image (I hope it is visible enough) is a graphic representation of the rounds being called for in the current mission. Note that I am not trying to CONTROL the number, just get FEEDBACK for what the game is using.

The bar under the howitzer icon has 3 sections: red shows what the mission will use; green shows what will be left AFTER this mission; black shows the theoretical maximum the unit could've had as well as what's been used.

The benefit to this idea is that the player can tell at a glance how much of his support he's going to use up. In my little image, it's obvious I will NOT be able to get another mission like that again. At best, my remaining support from that gun section will only be capable of 1/2 the rounds I'm calling for now.

The section beneath, with the grenade icons, becomes superfluous. It is available to add more information, if desired.

Comments, ideas, thoughts?

Thanks,

Ken

[Meach]

Nice picturs

[c3k]

Ahh, the ability to post pictures! If only I could link to a thread about that!

Many thanks,

Ken

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I like this idea a lot.

Slightly OT:

May I suggest that in future you crop the image to the relevant portion and blow that up a little? Kinda tricky to see what's going on.

[c3k]

Elmar,

You're right that the images need improving.

Here's an attempt at zooming in:

And since that worked, let's pull in a little more:

Thanks,

Ken

[c3k]

Since I'm using Elmar's suggestion for zooming in, here's a close up view of the 81mm ammo picture; please note the space for more ammo on the left grenade, as well as the single ammo bar added over the right grenade:

Again, why is that ammo bar not with the others?

Thanks,

Ken

[Skinnedpuppy]

If I had to make one criticism of CMSF it would be the lack of user feedback on what is going on under the hood. CMx1 had a lot more and was all the more fun for it.

If I'm calling down mortar support on a target I want to know what kind of rounds are falling (even if this will mean nothing to me, it's prompts me to do some research which deepens the immersion, Note I’m not saying that I want select the kind of round i'd just like to know), how many rounds do I have left? Time to impact etc

Another example is the detailed armour hits, which many bemoan the lack of. (hopefully these will be back in WW2)

The UI has a lot of funky pictures of various equipment, what half of this I have no idea, there has been some headway in that I can hover over the various firearms but IMO the rest of the panel could do with this. (I'm probably noticing this more because I have no idea about modern warfare)

Not that I'm complaining mind, this game is tons of fun, just my one criticism

[Elmar Bijlsma]

btw,

An addition to the suggested UI:

The red bar for the current fire mission to be divided in red for rounds fired in the assigned fire mission and Yellow for rounds assigned to the fire mission as yet unfired.

[c3k]

Elmar Bijlsma,

I was busy painting while you posted.

Here's another idea:

Obviously this is a rough idea; but being able to visualize the information would be a great help. I'm sure that FO's know how many rounds, or how much time, each mission will be supported with. We, the players, don't have that information right now.

Yeah, adding the yellow portion would certainly help the player know how much time (or destruction!) is left; that would add into the ability to cancel or correct the mission.

Thanks,

Ken

[Darkmage]

Yeh I'm not sure what's going on with arty, i.e. how much I'm going to use and how much I have etc.. a little more info in the UI would be helpful and allow you to plan things a bit better!

[JohnO]

Lets not forget about air support this could be used as well.

[c3k]

Oh, I thought I'd start a thread on the Air Support UI very soon.

My rough idea is to eliminate all the 40mm grenades carried by aircraft However, if Marine cobras (Z model?) still carry chin mounted 40mm grenade launchers, then they would be the only ones retained.

Otherwise, each aircraft icon would have its specific loadout shown.

Paintshop wonders will be enroute....

Thanks,

Ken

[JonS]

FWIW, in the current system, the 'other' grenade is used to indicate smoke rounds available. That's why it isn't included with the tall stack of ammo.

[c3k]

JonS,

Well, that didn't seem to work in the latest test I just ran. I was curious about the 81mm ammo loadout. The image I posted upstream is equal to 70 rounds (including spotting round). The last ammo bar to go was the one on the right: I paid particular attention to the incoming rounds after that bar disappeared. The TOF caused a delay between the bar disappearing and the last impact. I could not discern ANY difference between any of the rounds and the last salvo (or two).

I had also assumed it might've been smoke, but I could neither order it, nor see it. (This is a scenario I set up under v1.0?, not v1.10; SMOKE would not have been available then. That may be why no smoke was available in the test scenario.)

So, that theory went up in smoke.

Thanks,

Ken

[MeatEtr]

Elmar Bijlsma,

I was busy painting while you posted.

Here's another idea:

Obviously this is a rough idea; but being able to visualize the information would be a great help. I'm sure that FO's know how many rounds, or how much time, each mission will be supported with. We, the players, don't have that information right now.

Yeah, adding the yellow portion would certainly help the player know how much time (or destruction!) is left; that would add into the ability to cancel or correct the mission.

Thanks,

Ken

Ha, I was just reading through this thread and was about to post this idea. Dump the normal ammo loadout screen for arty, this is much better for user feedback. This is a great, it gets my vote.

It also looks like this interface tweak could still work for the aircraft loadout too. It appears 4 bars could be squeezed in there no problem. I don't think any aircraft is equipped with more than 4 different weapons.

[JonS]

JonS,

Well, that didn't seem to work in the latest test I just ran. I was curious about the 81mm ammo loadout. The image I posted upstream is equal to 70 rounds (including spotting round). The last ammo bar to go was the one on the right: I paid particular attention to the incoming rounds after that bar disappeared. The TOF caused a delay between the bar disappearing and the last impact. I could not discern ANY difference between any of the rounds and the last salvo (or two).

I had also assumed it might've been smoke, but I could neither order it, nor see it. (This is a scenario I set up under v1.0?, not v1.10; SMOKE would not have been available then. That may be why no smoke was available in the test scenario.)

So, that theory went up in smoke.

Thanks,

Ken

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to say here :confused:

This may be relevant though: Any smoke rounds you have are lost if you fire off all the HE before firing the smoke. IMO it shouldn't be that way, but that's the way it is.

[Other Means]

What would an FO know?

Would he know the total rounds he had available?

Or total plus reserve?

Or total on call with more on delay?

Would he know or care how many had been fired - doubt it - or would he just know if he yelled he could have so many from distance x (= spread) and so many from distance y?

I would like to have access to all the information he would have. Is this is to the round that's what I want to have.

I doubt he's on the phone saying "Give me fire" "On the way - you've got, ooo, a few round left. Enough for a barbie maybe. If you're careful.".

IOW - I want integers, not bars.

[Lethaface]

Ken,

I didnt have time to read the thread fully, I have to go to the airport @ 6 sharp.

However, this is where U excel!! Its good to have your around bringing up major issues

Your efforts are appreciated...

[JonS]

What would a UK FO know?

Would he know the total rounds he had available?Yes

Or total plus reserve? That would be up to the FO to determine - i.e., he gives himself a reserve from the total ammo allocation the BC or CO gives him

Or total on call with more on delay? He'd have a rough idea of the total available at the guns, but without an allocation that's kind of moot. BTW, 'delay' is a specific fuze setting - I assume you mean 'more available somewhere down the logistics pipeline'?

Would he know or care how many had been fired - doubt it - or would he just know if he yelled he could have so many from distance x (= spread) and so many from distance y? I'm not sure what you're asking, but in general, yes, the FO would assume that when he calls for fire there will be rounds available.

I would like to have access to all the information he would have. If this is to the round that's what I want to have.

Different missions are, well, different.

When preparing a fireplan - a series of targets to support a deliberate attack - the FO will be give the guns, and an ammo allocation (as noted above). This means that his access to those assets is guaranteed - no one else can have them until the fireplan/attack is complete. He then works out his plan in conjunction with the supportted arms commander - what targets to attack, in what order, with what type and how much ammunition. He knows exactly how much ammo he has, and works within that to acheive the task. Generally, for a company attack, the FO will be a captain and will have access to a battery of 6 guns. For a battalion attack the FO will be a major (a battery commander - he will use the captain FOs under him to conduct and control aspects of his fireplan), and have access to a regiment/batalion of 18 guns. (more assets may be given depending on what's available, what else is going on, etc etc)

When engaging a target of opportunity, the FO assess the target, and calls for fire from whatever he deems necessary, and 'immediately neutralises' the target. This fire is generally not guaranteed.

In CMSF terms, the allocation of artillery is sort-of a mix between the two. The allocation of guns and ammo is made up front, and is thus guaranteed. However, anybody in the game can call on the the guns and ammo. The difference is that you don't really know how much ammo you actually have.

In terms of calling for fire, UK FOs will specify the exact number of guns and rounds to engage each target with, either directly (eg, "10 rounds, fire for effect", will deliver exactly 60 rounds from a battery fire as quickly as possible) or indirectly (eg "13 rounds, fire for effect, rate 3" will deliver 78 rounds from the battery, but each gun will fire one round every 20 seconds - giving 3 rounds per minute, hence rate 3 - meaning those rounds will be spread over 4 minutes).

The only exception is "continuous fire", in which case the guns will just keep firing till they either break, run out of ammo - although heaven and earth will be moved to ensure they don't - or the FO gives another fire command.

The current CMSF system models this doctrinal approach poorly.

AIUI, the US system is a little different in that generally the FO will just tell the FDC what the target is, and the FDC figures out how many guns they are going to engage with, and how much ammo will be fired.

The current CMSF system models this doctrinal approach much better - which makes sense, since it's modelling US forces

So, the info available depends on the level you picture yourself at. If you are a US FO, then it's probably about right (except for the lack of feedback about duration and number of missions you can expect from different ammo-bar-lengths). If you are a US FDC then it's way off. If you are a UK FO, then it is way way off.

[c3k]

JonS,

Sorry not to be clear.

In your previous post, you stated that the single red-bar of ammo for the right-most grenade icon was for smoke ammo.

You are wrong.

Clear?

for hurt feelings.

Now, I will expand on why you were wrong. (I attempted to do so in my previous post, but, as you stated, I must not have been clear enough.)

I, too, thought the single red-bar may be for some sort of odd ammunition. Smoke was my first choice, but I was open to any other difference.

The screenshot, and the unit it is from, and the scenario in which the unit was purchased, were ALL pre-v1.10. Why did I mention that in my previous post? Because it was only with v1.10 that SMOKE became an artillery type.

So, I fired all the rounds available to that 81mm section into a 160m circular area target type. I watched the ammo bars disappear as rounds streaked into the impact zone.

The very last ammo bar to disappear was the odd ammo bar in the right-most grenade column.

Due to Time of Flight, there was a delay of approximately 1/2 minute between the time the ammo bar disappeared and when the last rounds impacted. The last rounds (and the several pairs before it, since each ammo bar represents several pairs (quick math here - 12 total ammo bars, 11 on the left, 1 one on the right, equate to 70 rounds)) were the SAME as all the other rounds, _as far as I could tell_.

Definitely no smoke.

Smoke was NOT an option for this pre-v1.10 mortar section.

No visible differences in impact or explosion.

Hence, I still do not know why that lone ammo bar is sitting over there.

You stated it was smoke. It is not. I have tested it.

I then RE-tested it, using v1.10 and a new 81mm section. SMOKE is available for as many rounds as I have. And, the ammo loadout is the same - 11 bars on the left, 1 bar on the right grenades. The one red ammo bar on the right is NOT smoke only.

I have no idea why it is there. I hate to say "bug". Really.

Does anyone else have any ideas as to why that ammo bar is there?

I'm trying to concisely and clearly communicate to JonS about the red ammo bar on the right grenade icon. I'm not trying to be snide. I certainly hope that the tone I conveyed was not out of place.

Now, on to the immediately upstream post by JonS: Awesome! Thank you.

The whole point of my starting this thread (again, if anyone has remembered my other ones) is that the PLAYER should have the same INFORMATION as a real FO. I don't care if a battery fires 21 or 23 rounds. I need to know if it can fire the mission I have called for.

As JonS states above, a real FO would know BEFORE the mission whether or not the artillery unit could support his request. Right now, CMSF makes that information virtually impenetrably obtuse to obtain.

How many ammo bars does a 160 meter linear target light/short use? Anyone? Anyone? I didn't think so.

If a real FO called in that target type, would he know if the mission would be supported? Absolutely. Otherwise, UK or US, the appropriate agency (FDC or whatnot) will let him know that they cannot fire that mission as called for.

So, BF.C, is there any way you could let the PLAYER see that INFORMATION? Notice that I'm not asking for CONTROL. Not at all.

Thanks,

Ken

[Elmar Bijlsma]

A completely WAG but I always figured the secondary bar was some sort of administrative hack, possibly to keep track of rounds in air at the end of firing.

[JonS]

I'm trying to concisely and clearly communicate to JonS about the red ammo bar on the right grenade icon. I'm not trying to be snide.

Hi Ken, I know you weren't and I didn't take it that way. I just couldn't figure out what you were saying Oh, well. Smoke was my assumption - if not that then I have no idea *shrug* You do realise, don't you, that you've shattered an illusion here

BTW, in principle I'm totally down with the concept of more info feedback to the player regarding what is and isn't possible with the ammo available, and agree that the current feedback is less than great. It'd be even nicer if the feedback could reflect the subtle doctrinal differences between the US, the UK, and the German approaches.

[JonS]

Ken, I did some more testing tonight (as part of something else I was doing) and have proved to myself, to my own satisfaction, that the second grenade (the right hand one) does indeed indicate smoke rounds.

Grab a couple of 155mms, give them a smoke mission (NOT HE) and watch what happens (right hand counter will go down) . Rinse and repeat, except this time give them an HE mission (right hand counter will NOT go down until all HE has been expended, at which point you will lose any smoke you had).

Then again, regardless of who is 'right' the mere fact that we are discussing this does indicate that the arty UI is a bit borked

Jon

[c3k]

JonS,

I'll do that! Thanks for following up.

(My only fig-leaf of an excuse will be that the original setup pre-dates v1.10; therefore, no artillery is capable of smoke and no FO is capable of requestion smoke. Obviously, to be fair to the game, it is inexcusable to test a new capability added in a recent patch by using a pre-patched scenario. I will gin up a whole new test scenario so only the latest and greatest artillery support units are added.)

I'm also interested in artillery round counts based on ammo availability in the editor.

More on all that later!

Regards,

Ken

[c3k]

I've run a few tests.

For grins, here's the result of a 60mm Mortar module under SEVERE ammo conditions.

SEVERE shows 5 ammo bars under the left-most 40mm icon; no ammo bars over the other 40mm icon.

3 runs; each run showed a total of 27 rounds impacting. (However, the number of impact craters were less; 9, 8, 11). This was under GENERAL target type. (No airbusts obvserved.)

Next, I ran smoke. 2 smoke rounds. Yeah, 2. Then the right 40mm icon disappeared. Afterwards, the section fired HE. It was limited to 25 rounds.

So, pretty ironclad results: 60mm, SEVERE ammo, can only fire a total of 27 rounds. At most 2 will be smoke. As JonS stated, if you fire off HE first, you can convert the 2 available smoke rounds into HE. The reverse is not true.

I ran a bunch of other tests, but sometimes the impacts did not produce impact craters, so I will re-run them and count the bursts as they occur.

A simple user interface tweak would help!

Thanks,

Ken