Night tactics

[Atago]

I've just got Marines, and am playing with the first scenario in the campaign. You are to send scout teams to various locations across a map with a city on one side and more open ground with a few buildings on the other. It's night, dark and quiet.

First question - how can I tell how well the enemy can see? If they don't have night vision (and I don't' know for sure if they do or not) how far can they see? If I'm out in an open field where I'd be obvious in the daylight, at night visibility depends more on distance - can they bad guys see me?

If the object is to be sneaky - can I tell my guys to hold fire, assuming that my firing will give my forces away. I really don't know (see above) if the enemy forces have spotted my guys or not at this point. If not - I'd rather not shout "HERE I AM" to the world!

Great game/Simulation, still very much learning this thing and having fun doing so. Glad my Marines are virtual and not real... I'd be considered a Syrian secret weapon for all the poor Jarheads I get killed off!

[SgtMuhammed]

As far as what the other guy can see, as in real life, you never know. Always assume you are under observation and try to use covered and concealed routes or cover each other while moving. Most regular Syrian squads have no night vision but some of the specialist units do, so don't assume they can't see you.

If you give your guys a short target arc then they will hold fire unless something enters that arc.

[Atago]

As far as what the other guy can see, as in real life, you never know. Always assume you are under observation and try to use covered and concealed routes or cover each other while moving. Most regular Syrian squads have no night vision but some of the specialist units do, so don't assume they can't see you.

If you give your guys a short target arc then they will hold fire unless something enters that arc.

Tactically to me the dilemma is this - I can sneak from building to building throught he city where I have much better cover OR I can hoof it over the open areas further away from buildings.

Good: City has lots more cover, good places to hide around corners and what not. Bad: City has lots of places for the bad guys to be hiding and ambush you.

Open field, bad guys can't be hiding close to you however IF they can spot you you're waggling your ass in the air asking it to get shot off!

In town it's like land mines - you start to cross a street then "find" the enemy the hard way as rounds start to land on your scouts - and you don't have too many of them to spare.

It's one of those interesting quandries - each approach has advantages and disadvantages, but much depends on how much cover of darkness you have.

[MikeyD]

Your tactics all depend on your horoscope. The game tracks the phases of the moon. If you're out wandering under a bright full moon you should assume they can see you coming all the way back to Damascus. A moonless night with cloud cover you may be able to walk up to them and tap 'em on the helmet before they know you're there! The last time I recall this being discussed people were crying "Night time is too dark!" Eventually someone though to ask about whether there was a moon out and the complaints quickly turned to "Ooooh... nevermind"

[Atago]

Your tactics all depend on your horoscope. The game tracks the phases of the moon. If you're out wandering under a bright full moon you should assume they can see you coming all the way back to Damascus. A moonless night with cloud cover you may be able to walk up to them and tap 'em on the helmet before they know you're there! The last time I recall this being discussed people were crying "Night time is too dark!" Eventually someone though to ask about whether there was a moon out and the complaints quickly turned to "Ooooh... nevermind"

Ok, I checked on the internet and on the date of the scenario it's supposed to be a new moon. Actually I didn't - somehow I don't think that was covered. :cool:

I can't tilt the camera up to do stargazing! I think I'll try sneaking through the fields just to see, it's not like I can't try again a different way! One thing real Marines likely wish they could do.

[meade95]

Does CMSF model U.S. force to have night vision or not? I would hope so for the most part (especially U.S. Army.....as the Marines don't always, I understand that.....but the U.S. Army almost all units do).

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Does CMSF model U.S. force to have night vision or not? I would hope so for the most part (especially U.S. Army.....as the Marines don't always, I understand that.....but the U.S. Army almost all units do).

With 1.10, you can look at the units' equipment and it shows whether they have night vision or not.

[Atago]

Does CMSF model U.S. force to have night vision or not? I would hope so for the most part (especially U.S. Army.....as the Marines don't always, I understand that.....but the U.S. Army almost all units do).

There is a symbol now for night vision. Problem is you can't tell how good it is or how dark it is - no way to get an idea of how much cover the night is giving you!

The camera view gives you good vision all around, I assume that the bad guys don't have that (or the good guys without night vision equipment) - but ya can't tell for sure! I don't think the Syrians can see too well as they wait until you're fairly close before they fire. Problem is, that's what they may do anyway even IF they see you coming! So far I have been unable to spot them in buildings before they open fire, even using hunt and stopping fairly frequently to enable the marines (in this case) to look around.

[Cpl Steiner]

I would treat this as a straight forward fire and manoeuvre exercise. If you keep your teams in pairs with one always covering the move of the other, any Syrians foolish enough to open up on your moving teams should find themselves coming under accurate and deadly sniper fire within seconds. The moving teams should use the hunt command unless they can already see spotted enemy, in which case I'd use quick or slow depending on distance to target and/or cover/concealment.

I would also give teams hide orders at all times unless they are covering the move of another. If the covering team can see enemy already then keep them hiding so they don't engage the spotted enemy but be ready to cancel the hide order as soon as any firing starts.

[ChrisND]

How does the game calculate night vision LOS? Is it a straight set of values derived from the atmospheric conditions and the generic presence of night vision technology, or is it variable and incremental? An interesting equation to calculate it would be something involving these variables: moon phase, cloud cover, atmospheric conditions, level of night vision technology, IR vs. visible spectrum, and unit experience.

Something else; do tanks/vehicles actually use their thermals? Because it seems to me that their night spotting against infantry is no better than the WW2 vehicles was.

[Atago]

The problem with the night missions is pretty basic for me, I can't get a good handle on how well everyone can see. Drop me in a field at night and in a second I'll have good idea if walking over to that orchard in the distance is a good idea (as far as others seeing me) or not. While I don't want to drop into Syria very bad - a bubble of visibility around my guys, outside which things got foggy or something would serve well. I could turn off my night vision and know what the enemy sees (or doesn't).

The hunt and cover suggestion from earlier is a good one - and that's what I did. Even so I got bounced well enough by hiding Syrian forces to do damage, and make me concerned that my remaining forces can achieve the mission goals. Sure I killed many bad guys, but that's not the mission. This scenario to me is very much like walking in a minefield, and the sneaky Syrian forces (the mines) are not obvious and even in "noob mode" don't get spotted before they open fire unless they're out running around. I did pretty good with this one - screwed up mainly in that I didn't keep some forces on station at victory locations (duh, moved them to the next one and didn't read my briefing).

I found this little "sneak through town" scenario fun and challenging. Be vewy, vewy quiet... get half way across the street and find AK-47 shells inbound.

[MikeyD]

My seat-of-the-pants impression is on any night but a moonless night the Syrians should eventually be able to spot out to AK range, 250-ish meters, but much beyond that don't have a good grasp of distant units. Full moon its considerably more. I don't know if its my imagination but Syrians eyes seem to adjust to the night as the battle goes on. You start getting incoming fire from 150m, then from 250, then from 300.

[Atago]

My seat-of-the-pants impression is on any night but a moonless night the Syrians should eventually be able to spot out to AK range, 250-ish meters, but much beyond that don't have a good grasp of distant units. Full moon its considerably more. I don't know if its my imagination but Syrians eyes seem to adjust to the night as the battle goes on. You start getting incoming fire from 150m, then from 250, then from 300.

I prefer them firing at me from further away, less accuracy and more time then to duck. The Marine longer range firepower comes into its own then as opposed to the Syrians opening up when you're virtually sitting in their laps!

Seeing further away may be a function of the AI forces getting wind that there is mischief about. When a night scenario starts they may not be aware that anythings happening, Vs later when shots have been fired and alertness would be increased. I don't know if it would be seeing further as much as it would be paying more attention.

I half wondered if I'd find sleeping civilians in the buildings. Sneaking a Marine scout group in a building only to have some Syrian lady wake up and start screaming her head off could be a problem! SHHHHHHH!!!

[meade95]

Do we / Is there a template for which units actually have "night vision" equipment?

Knowing this prior to purchasing would be nice (or is it just trial and error until we know ourselves?)....

Does equipment ratings have any thing to do with this? Good Vs Poor?

I think it would be a nice feature (simple) to equip all units rated "elite" with Night Vision...

Thanks

[Clevinger]

For the Syrian army, only Special Forces have night vision equipment

[Elmar Bijlsma]

My seat-of-the-pants impression is on any night but a moonless night the Syrians should eventually be able to spot out to AK range, 250-ish meters, but much beyond that don't have a good grasp of distant units. Full moon its considerably more. I don't know if its my imagination but Syrians eyes seem to adjust to the night as the battle goes on. You start getting incoming fire from 150m, then from 250, then from 300.

Probably the effect of more shooting as the battle drags on. Units firing are easier to spot, so longer ranges.

As to the ranges at which you should spot enemies: Ranges in CMSF are pretty generous. Have you been in a rural area at night lately? Unless it's full moon you can't see a lot. Let along some camouflaged dude trying to not be seen.

[ChrisND]

Probably the effect of more shooting as the battle drags on. Units firing are easier to spot, so longer ranges.

As to the ranges at which you should spot enemies: Ranges in CMSF are pretty generous. Have you been in a rural area at night lately? Unless it's full moon you can't see a lot. Let along some camouflaged dude trying to not be seen.

Especially if they have received this valuable training:

[Atago]

I was watching a show about the M1A1/A2 on the Military channel this weekend. One tanker said he liked fighting at night much better than during the day as the thermal sights caused enemy vehicles and infantry to show up much more. I'm not positive, but I don't think this is the case in CMSF, or at least it's not obvious if it is.

[Guest Guest]

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