Back at the Fire Control Center...

[c3k]

"Good morning, Sir! You're back from the Brigade meeting sooner than I expected. What's the word for today?" asked the Artillery Battalion's First Sergeant.

"Well," replied the Artillery Battalion Commander, "Brigade is going to push hard this way." He emphasized the direction by smacking the situation map. "We're going to be on tap to provide support for the lead battalion. The plan is for them to take this village, here." So saying, he pointed his laser pointer right at the village on the map. "We'll have 2 hours till it kicks off. Let's get a rough plan going."

"Yes, Sir!" said the First Sergeant.

The Commander and First Sergeant then planned how to support the operation. They brought in the staff, prepped the men, ammoed the guns, laid in all the things that need laying. In short, a crack team of professionals went about their business.

Two hours later...

"Any word, Sparks?" asked the Commander of the radio net chief.

"Ah, just a minute, sir. Something's just coming in. I'll put it on speaker!"

"Arty support! We need arty support! This is zebra06, requesting a fire mission, come in!" squawked the radio.

"My God, man!! That's what we've been preparing for!" shouted the Commander. "Answer him, dammit, Sparks!"

Sparks keyed the mike: "Go ahead Zebra06, this is your Arty support. We've been humping ammo all day, waiting for your call!"

The voice replied, "Zebra06, requesting 2 tubes of 155, medium duration, medium attack, personnel, area target at coordinates AB123456. I say again, 2 tubes, medium, medium, personnel, area, at AB123456. Over."

"Hang on there Sparks," said the Commander. "First Sergeant. How long will it take us to figure out how to get a round over to AB123456. Isn't that the area we were briefed to expect?"

"Yes, sir! That's right where we expected the support call! We're ready. Let me look up the response time in the charts..." Quickly, the First Sergeant flipped through his charts. "I've got the answer, sir! Ten minutes!!"

"What? Ten minutes?" queried the Commander.

"Yes sir. Ten minutes." was the reply.

"Very well." The Commander turned to Sparks. "Tell them their arty support will be there in ten minutes."

Sparks did just that...

The radio crackled, "WHAT!?!? We're getting nailed. I SAW you at the Brigade meeting. What have you been doing all day!!!"

The Commander grabbed the mike, "Sorry, we're doing our best. Ten minutes. Oh, and we only have enough ammo for, say, two of those medium/medium missions. We got tired carrying those heavy things."

Yes, this could've happened. In fact, it seems to happen in all too many of my games.

Why does it take so long to get artillery rounds on target? Especially if it's tasked, per the briefing, to support a unit?

Is there ANY way to tweak the artillery response times?

BTW, this is at Elite difficulty.

I find it hard to believe 10 minutes is acceptable. Heck, some types of support show 6 minutes. That too is unacceptable.

In another note, there's a link to an F/A-18 making a couple of ground attack runs: time between runs is WAY less than in game. I know all too well that the planes are not making a 9-g 360, but again, the response/repeat attack times seem out of sync.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Ken

[dan/california]

I guess that you could argue that the 155 might be servicing other targets for other observers. BUT, when the FO calls his own battalion's mortar platoon, which is tasked solely in his control it seems that rounds would be on the way in 90 seconds plus flight time. It certainly seems that this would be the case in for the the second, third, and so on request in the same thirty minute period in even a hastily pre-planned operation.

Any old arty/mortar guy's want to comment?

[theFightingSeabee]

Nice way to put your argument Ken!

I'm not an old mortar guy, but I personally planned (preplanned) what we called OCT's, or On Call Targets, when I went out on a patrol. These pre-registered grid coordinates were handed to the mortar platoon before we ever left. This way, they would already be able to know how and where to aim the mortars on short notice. Even if we didn't want to fire mortars at any of those exact locations, we could easily use the OCT's as polar reference points. We had no GPS units, only maps, compasses, and protractors (or even a piece of string), and we were able to get rounds on target in just a few minutes.

In CMSF, I don't really have a problem with the time it takes to get the rounds on target. They get there pretty quickly. My main concern is the small number of rounds available. Even our small 750 man battalion could supply more artillery suppression than CMSF mortars. More rounds available would be nice. At least give the scenario designers a choice of how much ammo is available.

What I would really love to see is OCT's like the ones in CMx1 that you could place during setup. Also, we were able to target areas that were not in direct line-of-sight. I think this is a major mistake in CMSF. We should be able to target any coordinate on the map. Hell, we even targeted our Mk19's in defiladed areas like ditches and other likely avenues of approach because the rounds tend to arc. These areas were also preregistered so the Mk19 crews could preset their Transverse and Elevation clamps on their tripods. This way, they would know (even in the dark) that a particular target was 8 notches left and 15 notches up.

[ChrisND]

I was a mortar FDC. I can't speak for arty or air times, but the mortar times are about right if the crew was not ready for the fire mission. If the target was pre-defined, or the mortar layed anywhere in the general vicinity of the target then it should be faster.

ETA: Agreed with Seabee that we need the OCTs back, and that we need to be able to target points not in LOS.

[missinginreality]

Targetting points not in LOS would certainly seem a sensible option if it is a given that one can call for support to a grid reference in RL? I would agree that it may be more inaccurate due to the fact that spotting rounds would not be as visible as in LOS but I think one should be able to make some kind of out-of-LOS plan.

[Huntarr]

Concur that we should be able to have no LOS targeting but with a penalty against accuracy. It would not be "gamey" since an Area Fire can not be larger than 400m now.

Possibly also limiting the size of the area/linear pattern to 200m in size if you have no LOS.

[c3k]

Another item which doesn't seem right is the responsiveness rating listed on the asset symbol. That would be the green dots. If I've got all green dots it doesn't seem to matter. I get the same time delay as if I have some red.

Additionally, right after a mission the number of green dots drops. WTF? Sorry, we can't respond, we just finished? Then, the green dots regenerate.

There is currently, afaik, no way to for the player to see/know the amount of ammo available.

Unless, somehow, the ammo levels are tied into the responsiveness levels? If so, the new rewrite of the manual does not reflect that.

Emphasizing a point made by Normal Dude, who was a mortar FDC, as he stated, "...I can't speak for arty or air times, but the mortar times are about right if the crew was not ready for the fire mission."

Okay, so 6 minutes (120mm mortar times by spotters at Elite difficulty) is about right if the mortar section is caught flat-footed.

And further, if the mortar section is not unprepared for the call, why 6 minutes?

Let's take it to the other possibility: the artillery section actually COORDINATED their actions with the manuever elements. So much so that they actually know what to expect. Why would towed 155's take 10 minutes to land a round on target?

Each successive call to the SAME gun section should be MORE responsive, not less.

The initial level of responsiveness seems a bit sluggish.

Has anyone done a series of tests, or will it fall to me? (I'll gladly engage in the test process, I just don't want to repeat someone else's work.)

Thanks,

Ken

[ChrisND]

Something worth noting is that multiple adjustments can take a while. An average TOF (time of flight) for an average mortar fire mission is 25-30 seconds. If 3 adjustments are needed before FFE, then you can see how that adds up.

A nice feature (add to the bottom of the massive list ) would be for the scenario designer to state the readiness of the support section in the TOE section, which would affect delivery times when called. Furthermore, if the piece is organic, then after the first (slow) response, concurrent responses would be faster, as it would already be layed in and pointed at the general area.

[cabal23]

I always thought that was crazy too. My other issue is accuracy. I have a spotter in a three story building and LOS to the whole map. Somehow the arty ends up danger close to my guys, ridiculously far from my original spot. Now this doesn't always happen and I know with things lobbed into the air, there is always room for random elements, but come on. Then when I redirect it. it takes way to long to move the rounds a few hundred meters.

[c3k]

Exactly!

I'm okay with the occasional flyer. I wonder if wind conditions in the scenario affect accuracy?

The first round delay seems too long. But then the follow-on missions seem FAR too long.

I'm in the midst of running some basic tests.

Regards,

Ken

[theFightingSeabee]

Good point. Once the FO has a dedicated mortar section on line, any followups and adjustments should take much less time.

Ken, I'm looking forward to seeing the results of your tests.

[Battlefront.com]

There are some refinements in the v1.10 release that will impact some of what is said here. However, there are three things which we have yet to do:

1. TRP/OCTs - these should improve both speed of delivery and accuracy

2. Repeat mission setup waiver - asking the same asset to fire at the same target, even without TRP/OCT, should not involve the same time to setup as a fresh mission. Especially for Air Assets.

3. Priority Fire - player should be able to designate specific units to have a speed bonus regardless of where they are in the food chain organically speaking. This simulates saying "you... peon FO! You're now the guy responsible for calling in regimental artillery fire. Don't fudge it up!"

All of these things are on the ToDo List, but obviously haven't been done yet. TRP/OCTs are on the short list of priorities for WWII because they are far more important back then than they are now.

Steve

[c3k]

Steve,

Good to hear that progress will continue.

How about addressing the desire to drop shells on areas in defilade? Good old grid work?

You know, the ability to fire on the BACK-side of a hill.

Thanks,

Ken

[c3k]

Aaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhhh.

Continuing our saga from the first post....

"Arty center, this is Zebra06, over!", squawked the radio.

"Sir!", yelled Sparks, "We have another request from Zebra06!"

The Artillery Battalion Commander rushed over, saying, "Sparks, go ahead and tell him to give us his request!"

"This is Zebra06. I need a smoke mission, medium, medium, area, at YZ987654, 50 meter radius! We're getting hosed by RPG's and machineguns! We need 81mm smoke! NOW!"

The Artillery Commander spun around to his First Sergeant, "You heard the man! Get that smoke downrange now! We've been put on this earth for just this sort of call! Make it happen!" Then, looking at Sparks, he said, "Relay all calls from the firing battery to Zebra06."

"First Sergeant!", yelled the commander.

"Yes, sir?", he replied.

"I want Jenkins to work the firing solution for this shoot. We need to ensure each man in the FDC can do each other's job. I know it may add time to Zebra06's support, but our training is VERY important to my fitness report. Don't you agree?"

"But sir, um, don't they need that support NOW?", said the First Sergeant.

"C'mon man, how much difference will a few minutes make? Have Jenkins lay in the mortars. That's an order!", stated the commander.

Dutifully Sparks relayed the calls from the battery, calling out each of the needed three spotting rounds and splashes. Finally, the rounds were landing close to the target.

"Fire for effect!!" Plunk, plunk! "Mission Complete!!"

"This is zebra06. We only got TWO smoke rounds!!"

The commander grabbed the mike, "Yes, you should be glad we accepted the fire mission at all! We're glad for the training opportunity, but those smoke rounds are expensive! Unit budgets, you understand."

Grrrrr.

This highlights a v1.10 experience; The long delay for 81mm response after just calling in a previous mission. Steve did comment that the delays should be less for successive calls in future versions of the game. I'm wondering if he meant CMSF or for future modules/games?

Also, the lack of a suitable interface. (See my other threads...) I called for smoke and got exactly two smoke rounds. WTF? It was the first smoke call for that battery. I have no idea how many rounds will be used by a given mission nor how many will be left for future missions.

Please fix or somefink.

Thanks,

Ken

[Apocal]

If anything, response times for aircraft are too fast. When I was on cruise the average time from initial call to ordnance on target was something around 25-30 minutes. And they shouldn't really say, "I'm winchester" or "all ordnance expended" unless they've actually expended all ordnance. Something like "run's done, I'm off to the south-west" would be more realistic. Although I am very impressed that you actually hear the initial dry run flown overhead. Along with "shot/splash", you guys really got a lot of details most games miss.

[Wildman]

the response time for Air is pretty much right on. I can tell you that the 7-10 minutes from call to warheads on foreheads in Afghanistan right now is in that time frame.

[jenrick]

C3K: Okay so far I'm following your example. I'm still curious why artillery men can't fire at a target the FO doesn't have eyes on. I'm waiting for the next example (BTW I think some illustrations by Gunny would add to all of this )

I actually did some flying (first love is flight simming) the other night to see where my engagement times were for a CAS run. From the time I hit my IP and get the FAC giving me the target brief it's usually about 3-5 minutes till I'm ready to start my run. From there call it about 2 minutes or so between each pass, maybe a bit less if it's a target rich environment and I'm not too close to friendlies. This is all dropping straight iron or rockets, so no need to designate etc.

Dropping precision ordinance is going to be about 5-7 minutes to from call to release as I've got get my target locked up somehow (via radar, visual in the HUD etc.) then get into my release envelope. Additional runs in the same area are probably at 3-4 minutes to get reset and slew my target around a bit.

Things like Mavericks and the like though are going to be almost as fast as iron and rockets. Turn in, line it up and light it off. Maybe get 2-3 off in a pass if I'm on a good day. Average about 2-3 minutes to setup again.

If everyone's flying well though, you can have a continual wheel of folks rolling in on the target hitting it at 30-45 second intervals until the FAC calls it destroyed or everyone's winchester or totally dry.

My biggest gripe with the air support system currently is that no one from the mission designer to the player acting as the JTAC has a clue what the heck is on board your air support. Normally an aircraft would either check in with their ordinance, the Vietnam standard "snakes and nape," or the JTAC has the ATO to reference so he knows what the heck is there. Also he can always ask if he needs to.

CAS requests are going to vary based on what you've got overheard. Got a F-15E loaded down with JDAM's, go nuts on buildings, bunkers, trenches, any other precision targets. Got the same bird but with CBU's? Well hit anything in the open or not under cover. You can use both birds in a pinch on the same targets, but each is going to be much better at hitting different types of targets.

Oh and while we're on the topic of CAS, I want an AC-130 in game dang it. Light - 25 mm cannons, medium - 40 mm Bofors, heavy - 105mm howitzer. See nice and easy

-Jenrick

[Apocal]

the response time for Air is pretty much right on. I can tell you that the 7-10 minutes from call to warheads on foreheads in Afghanistan right now is in that time frame.

Glad to hear they got those issues sorted out. Waiting a half hour for "fast" movers had to seem like BS.

My biggest gripe with the air support system currently is that no one from the mission designer to the player acting as the JTAC has a clue what the heck is on board your air support. Normally an aircraft would either check in with their ordinance, the Vietnam standard "snakes and nape," or the JTAC has the ATO to reference so he knows what the heck is there. Also he can always ask if he needs to.

As far as I can tell, helos always come in with the "standard" mix of Hellfires/TOWs, rockets and gun ammo. A-10s bring rather large bombs (I want to say 500lbs), a few Mavericks and of course Mr. GAU-8. Hornets the same loadout as the A-10 minus the GAU-8. Anyone else had any different experiences?

CAS requests are going to vary based on what you've got overheard. Got a F-15E loaded down with JDAM's, go nuts on buildings, bunkers, trenches, any other precision targets. Got the same bird but with CBU's? Well hit anything in the open or not under cover. You can use both birds in a pinch on the same targets, but each is going to be much better at hitting different types of targets.

I don't believe CBUs are authorized for CAS any longer. You're essentially mining the area you bombed because of the dud rate.

Oh and while we're on the topic of CAS, I want an AC-130 in game dang it. Light - 25 mm cannons, medium - 40 mm Bofors, heavy - 105mm howitzer. See nice and easy

That would be cool.

[meade95]

C3K: Okay so far I'm following your example. I'm still curious why artillery men can't fire at a target the FO doesn't have eyes on. I'm waiting for the next example (BTW I think some illustrations by Gunny would add to all of this )

I actually did some flying (first love is flight simming) the other night to see where my engagement times were for a CAS run. From the time I hit my IP and get the FAC giving me the target brief it's usually about 3-5 minutes till I'm ready to start my run. From there call it about 2 minutes or so between each pass, maybe a bit less if it's a target rich environment and I'm not too close to friendlies. This is all dropping straight iron or rockets, so no need to designate etc.

Dropping precision ordinance is going to be about 5-7 minutes to from call to release as I've got get my target locked up somehow (via radar, visual in the HUD etc.) then get into my release envelope. Additional runs in the same area are probably at 3-4 minutes to get reset and slew my target around a bit.

Things like Mavericks and the like though are going to be almost as fast as iron and rockets. Turn in, line it up and light it off. Maybe get 2-3 off in a pass if I'm on a good day. Average about 2-3 minutes to setup again.

If everyone's flying well though, you can have a continual wheel of folks rolling in on the target hitting it at 30-45 second intervals until the FAC calls it destroyed or everyone's winchester or totally dry.

My biggest gripe with the air support system currently is that no one from the mission designer to the player acting as the JTAC has a clue what the heck is on board your air support. Normally an aircraft would either check in with their ordinance, the Vietnam standard "snakes and nape," or the JTAC has the ATO to reference so he knows what the heck is there. Also he can always ask if he needs to.

CAS requests are going to vary based on what you've got overheard. Got a F-15E loaded down with JDAM's, go nuts on buildings, bunkers, trenches, any other precision targets. Got the same bird but with CBU's? Well hit anything in the open or not under cover. You can use both birds in a pinch on the same targets, but each is going to be much better at hitting different types of targets.

Oh and while we're on the topic of CAS, I want an AC-130 in game dang it. Light - 25 mm cannons, medium - 40 mm Bofors, heavy - 105mm howitzer. See nice and easy

-Jenrick

Agree with all above - Especially the need to know what the sky-jocks above are carrying to the battle (and +1 on the need for the big Spooky AC-130 being brought to bear)....

I think is likely the next stage in CAS for CMSF...

[jenrick]

After re-reading Steve's list:

On assets that the player supposedly has priority on (company mortars or what not), how about being able to extend fire missions? If I've got priority of fires (shoot exclusivity possibly) and I want to keep putting rounds on target, why can't I just tell them to keep firing? Currently I've got to wait for the mission to finish then shoot it again. With the changes you've mentioned I'd get less of a delay, but I'm still having to call the mission again. Rather can we just add the option of extending a barrage? Have the ability tied to the responsiveness rating.

BTW anyone figured out if the responsiveness ratings actually do anything? I've never noticed any changes.

-Jenrick

[Apocal]

BTW anyone figured out if the responsiveness ratings actually do anything? I've never noticed any changes.

-Jenrick

Near as I've figured it, each support asset has a baseline time-to-call. A green mark means no time is added. A yellow mark means 1 minute added, a small red mark is 2 minutes and a big red mark is 3 or 4 minutes on top of the baseline. I guess to simulate relaying it up the chain and through the FO.

[c3k]

Hmmm,

I always thought the responsiveness ratings were all those little green circles. Sometimes when the asset is firing some of them turn red. Then they turn green again.

????

Ken

[Apocal]

Hmmm,

I always thought the responsiveness ratings were all those little green circles. Sometimes when the asset is firing some of them turn red. Then they turn green again.

????

Ken

I thought that was how many shells were in the air at that moment, so I never really paid attention to it and it's never seemed to have an effect on how fast my arty call gets forwarded.

???

WTFO.

[RSColonel_131st]

I recently visited the Spectres and Spookies at Hurlburt Field, Florida - and while I'd want them in the game, if a AC-130U would be under player command, for CMSF-sized battles you could go home and let the Fly Boys do the rest. They'd wipe everthing off the map singlehandled, no spotter needed either.

[jenrick]

RSColonel_131st: Not actually gonna argue that much truthfully. However for MOUT work I can see where they'd be slightly less effective, slightly

-Jenrick