Silent Mode on Subs Broken?!

[LarryP]

I have played SC2 Blitzkrieg and the Weapons & Warfare expansion and in both games my subs in silent mode got sunk. I mean the British went right over to them and sunk them. Whether in silent mode or attack, it made no difference?!

When I had them in attack mode, the British ships came right over to them and pounded them. So I put them in silent mode and scooted off as far as my allowable hex travel would allow. Next turn, the Brits went right to them and sunk them.

Is this feature broken? :eek:

[Sombra]

The feature is not broken.

Silent mode: You can´t hunt convoys , you can pass through hidden enemy ships if it is not a destroyer ( useful to prevent surprise contacts)

Hunt: You attack enemy convoys but you cant pass through enemy ships.

Neither prevents you from being discovered and attacked by the enemy

[LarryP]

It still seems like a broken option. No matter how I use silent mode, the enemy ships zero right in on me and I'm dead every time. Every enemy type ship and not just destroyers. As a matter of fact, subs in this game almost seem worthless.

I have a German sub off the coast of Canada and I have it in silent mode. Next turn the British ships zero right in on it and even when it dives, it's destroyed. The only place I can have subs last is in port.

Thank you for your reply.

[ebitt]

If you are playing against the AI, I believe you (LarryP) are correct. Their is no hunting involved. The Allied forces head straight for the sub no matter what the mode.

[Sombra]

As I nearly never play against the AI I cant tell. Its not that the silent mode is not working its that the FOW is not working if the enemy can see you everywhere.

This is up to teh BEta Testers and Hubert to answer if the AI is cheating

Against humans its possible to spot subs with bombers for example and then zero in on the sub.

[Hubert Cater]

LarryP, there might be a bit of confusion on the sub modes but generally what Sombra said is correct, all Silent mode does for now is allow you to pass through enemy ships except Destroyers (under FoW) while Hunt allows you to raid the convoy lines.

For the zero in effect, this is likely perhaps a misunderstanding of the game system. For example, perhaps your subs were spotted by air units, perhaps you had the misfortune of running into some of the early Allied blockades, i.e. the UK sets up a blockade of the North Sea with its Destroyers in the early phases of the game.

Essentially the trick is to try and move your subs around areas of likely spotting by your enemy during bad weather and to avoid Convoy lanes until you are ready and in proper position (unless running in Silent mode).

For a simple test, and anyone can repeat this, under WaW I played Fall Weiss and moved the at start German sub in the North Atlantic to tile 51,13 (which is away from the Convoy lanes) while in Hunt mode. Played several turns and sure enough it was never attacked. I then switched to Silent mode and moved it to tile 51,11 which is directly on the Canadian convoy lane and it was not attacked playing through several more turns. I then switched back to Hunt mode and sat in position and it was eventually attacked by the expected Destroyers.

Hope this helps,

Hubert

[Hubert Cater]

A few other points, tiles adjacent a convoy lane are also valid raiding tiles and your sub leaves a marker for the AI (a sub unit with a question mark), just like it does in Multiplayer that helps it know where the last convoy raid position took place.

Hubert

[ebitt]

Thank you for the clarification. I had completely missed the point that destroyers are exempted when the subs are in silent mode. That would completely explain the behaviour I have experienced in PDE 1.01. Rule # 1 - Read the manual.

[LarryP]

For a simple test, and anyone can repeat this, under WaW I played Fall Weiss and moved the at start German sub in the North Atlantic to tile 51,13 (which is away from the Convoy lanes) while in Hunt mode. Played several turns and sure enough it was never attacked. I then switched to Silent mode and moved it to tile 51,11 which is directly on the Canadian convoy lane and it was not attacked playing through several more turns. I then switched back to Hunt mode and sat in position and it was eventually attacked by the expected Destroyers.

Hope this helps,

Hubert

Hubert;

Thanks for the detailed reply. I printed out all you said and I will try what you said. Maybe a big difference is that I have also been playing with FoW off? I am trying to learn this game and having FoW off I thought may help me see what is going on more. Maybe that's the wrong thing to do?

I have a lot of war games, most from Matrix but quite a few from Battlefront, but I have never really sat down and tried to learn SC2 until now. It's very different from what I am used to. :eek: It's much harder than I thought, even on the easiest level.

Any tips would sure be appreciated. Yes I have read most of the manual.

[Hubert Cater]

Ah, if you are playing with FoW off then all bets are off as the AI can see just as much as you can

For tips I would read through some of the older forum posts on game play and strategies and generally ask any questions that you have as the group here is pretty good at helping new players out.

Happy gaming

Hubert

[AZGungHo]

Hey Larry.

Have fun, once you get the basics of SC2/WaW/PDE down it's a real blast! And the AI is a booty kicker for sure!

[LarryP]

Ah, if you are playing with FoW off then all bets are off as the AI can see just as much as you can

Happy gaming

Hubert

I should have stated that at the start, but I goofed. I'm sorry. Well, it's my fault again like usual. :mad:

So when playing with FoW off, silent mode only causes the sub to NOT hunt then. Not to be silent as far as being found. OK. Now I got it. I will start over with FoW on.

[LarryP]

Hey Larry.

Have fun, once you get the basics of SC2/WaW/PDE down it's a real blast! And the AI is a booty kicker for sure!

Hey AZ! I keep getting found over here. Well you caught me. I bought SC2 and both expansions and I have been trying to learn how to play this game without getting creamed every time. So far it's not happening, but I am also playing as Axis.

I liked SC2 so much I bought SC1 and enjoy that too. Also have Tacops4 and all Combat Missions (4). All great games! However I'm tired of getting beat in SC2.

[thetwo]

I have some thoughts on the subject of subs and economic warfare in game terms.

1.

Submarine technology advances do not seem to decrease detection. This is logical extension of the technology. I can illustrate.

I remember an incident on the day or day after Germany surrendered. All U-boats had been ordered to surface and surrender to the first Allied ship(s) they encountered. The Allied naval ships at sea were nervous as hell. They were worried that some dyed-in-the-wool Nazi would rather do down fighting and try to sucker them into lowering their gaurd.

Off the coast of Norway, a hunter/killer group of Allied ships, dedicated just to hunting U-boats was patrolling. A type XXI U-boat had received the order to surrender and the boat's captain intended to do so. BUT, he also wanted to find out how well his boat could perform. He ran a series of attacks on the hunter/killer group. Everything was real, except that no torpedoes were fired. He made two or three runs. All were duly plotted and logged. He was running rings around his targets too. All while submerged.

He approached the group and surfaced. The Allied ship's crews went nuts at first, as you can imagine. They lead ship, not really a flag ship as I don't recall a flag officer being in the group, signalled that the U-boat's captain was to report aboard with his logs. The captain did so, with his exec and had a cordial drink with his captors. During the visit, the Allied officers were very interested in the new U-boat that was keeping formation with them. The skipper proudly described his boat's capabilities and then told them about his attack runs prior to surrendering. The Allied offiers scoffed and thought he was making the story up. When he produced his logs and then sent over to the boat for the plots, the hunter/killer group officers realized that the U-boat could have sunk any one of their ships at will, with the only detection coming with the explosion of the first torpedo.

The type XXI boat was the direct forerunner of every advanced submarine in the world. As air-independent propulsion was developed in tandem with increased submerged speed, oxygen reprocessing, sensors, torpedoes, increased depth, surviveability, evasion, and endurance.

While arguements can be made, with justification, that Germany put its research eggs into too many baskets, it is much more accurate to say that few actual weapon systems could have decisively affected the outcome of the war if they had been developed earlier and in larger numbers. The type XXI boat is one of those few of which this is a legitimate question. Too few resources devoted to its development early on slowed it, then when it was ready to produce, they chose manufacturers with no experience in submarine or maritime production to build it. Absolute lunacy. Much as my comments in the V1/V2 thread, you get a good system, but the production system fails.

Anyway, I suggest that research advances in U-boats decrease detection by ship as well as by air. This might also impact speed and evasion.

In game terms, I've been considering a type VII-C a tech-2 boat. (Something else that may be relevent here is that the Allies didn't know how sturdy the type VII boats were until they captured one and ran tests. That's when the Allies upgraded their depth charges.)

2.

Note: This next is not historical and is more game of a game-dependent strategy.

There are two oddities that play into trying to fight an economic war with submarines.

First, if you look at the upgrades possibilities for carriers, battleships, and cruisers, you will see that they can receive anti-submarine warfare upgrades. I can only guess that this represents not actual upgrades to the platforms so named, but rather to task group as a whole, around which that class of ship is formed.

This means that in order to successfully use submarines, you have to be prepared to fight the entirety of your opponent's navy, not just his traditional anti-submarine forces. This is something of a traditional WWI naval view, but it applies and using can reduce your stress level.

If you can break your opponent's navy, then you can create a situation in which it is your subs against his destroyers.

You may still have the problem of his air power. Partly historical, partly not (see my first point concerning submarine technology advances).

Second, there are no penalties for concentrating all your ships to kill a single submarine. That is, unlike historically, you can take every ship in the Atlantic Ocean and concentrate it, to hunt any one submarine at a time if you want.

In WWII, by my estimate, the economic overhead for the U-boat campaign was about 1/10th the Allied cost of the merchant marine, escorts, coastal sea patrols, maritime patrols, and air patrols. You do not have any of that overhead and you do not have to worry about human costs. You can concentrate your entire force to hunt down one submarine at a time. You also have the benefit of being able to rotate naval forces out to repair at more nearby bases than the U-boat player. (Something I'd like to see the AI do better is repair ships in a more timely fashion, in the face of a concerted naval offensive.)

If you want to get a more accurate Atlantic campaign, I strongly recommend turning off, Undo Moves. At least then there is no repeated searching with one unit to try to find U-boats.

(Side Note: For my own use, I have a modified Storm of Steel scenario, that I keep tinkering with. I've added other convoy routes (US coastal convoys, US-Soviet Lend Lease), and instead of constructing Bismarck and Tirpitz had the Germans opt for the the alternate Z-plan. Then I had the British build their corresponding (response) naval program. Interesting battle of the Atlantic.)

[LarryP]

Gosh, Thank you! I printed this out and will read it before my next attempt. Thanks a million! If I have any questions then I will be back. Says Arnold...

[arado234]

thetwo, I think maybe the reason it doesnt get any harder to find subs it just gets harder to hit them as the sub tech.advances(level 5 subs especially with 5 experience bars at a strength of 15 are major hard to kill and just plow through Allied ships) is because Allied industrial might isnot set to actual production capability so if the subs were made harder to find then you would also have to adjust allied overall industrial might and we all know what will happen then.

[PowerGmbH]

I must say up to now i didn't understand the "silent mode" Really!

If i set silent mode and i mouve the Sub trough the "Channel" then a Cruiser that i previousely didnt spot/see ( Fog of War ) Pops up and stops my Sub.

so I thought i can dive trough this ship and continue to the Atlantic, but no. nothing to do... my unit is spotted, stopped and the Destroyers come like ****-flies.

Wasn't the Silent mode for diving through all ships (exept destroyers) without beeing spotted?

[Hubert Cater]

PowerGmbH,

Silent mode should actually do as you suggest but there is one catch and that is if you end your move next to any naval type or under any naval type then the game engine will pretty much stop your sub at the furthest point it can travel before it can no longer move forward without breaking this rule.

For example, if you had a line of ships running horizontally, let's say east/west between England and Norway, and the sub wishes to pass through this line vertically, i.e. North/South, then it will succeed in Silent mode as long as it can pass through without ending its move adjacent or underneath an enemy unit. Of course as long as it's path does not run it into a Destroyer as well.

But let's say you wished to move your sub in a north route 8 tiles and the last 2 tiles of the selected path are covered by a couple of cruisers, i.e. tile 7 and tile 8, then the sub will actually only proceed as far as tile 6 and then be stopped with a surprise contact by the Cruiser at tile 7.

A little complicated but hopefully this makes sense!

Hubert

[PowerGmbH]

hmm. i understand finally. you can dive trough all exept Destroyers but you can't come to surface on an occupied Sea Field.

Now this creates a Problem: In the Global Map Subs would have a Range of 6. Silent mode would be Range 3. Now this means that any Allied "Wall" ( i.e. in the Channel ) wider than 1 Tile, will confront the sub with the Surfacing Problem. Any two ships put one behind the other ( i.e. Channel ) would mean an impossibility to dive trough.

So the Silent Range is simply not enough. or is there a solution?

[Hubert Cater]

I've actually adjusted the Silent range as Bill also found it a bit too restrictive, but either way we can continue this discussion in the Beta forum as it is probably not that applicable here just yet

[LarryP]

I've been learning a lot with each new post. Thank you to all!

[Big Al]

There is actually a simply mod to make the battle of the atlantic more accurate.

I altered the "chance to dive" up so subs got away often. it is then upto the allies to research anti sub warfare. The ASW tech can be modded so it gives ships MORE asw than normal. Sub tech makes them slightly more stealthy. So if a DD find a sub early in the war and the sub doesnt dive, not much damage. Late in the war its crippling.

By 1942 the brits had Germany's u-boats beat. The 2nd happy time is only because the US entered the war kinda stupidly not escorting convoys. The Germans never invested until 1944 in the right u-boat (type XXIII) and it proved able to handle the new tech.