The_Red_Rage Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Links for the evidence of indiscriminate civilian bombings please. Pictures would be nice. And Georgians HAVE been shooting into basements, civilian houses, and other shelters where civilians hid indiscriminately. If they cared about the fate of Ossetians so much, then why did they lob grenades into shelters that did not return fire? Coming back to the 11 year old example - 11 is old enough to know what you are doing (and carry weapon in some places). I'm just curious - what is your standpoint on this? Should Russian just have waited for Georgia to take over Ossetia? Or pushed Georgia to their original lines with a "Come again!" message? Proper U.N. channels of resolution did not work by the way - U.S. blocked the emergency meeting motion initiated by Russia on the night of the attck... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=utElrIGwDn4 http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=AYNcOiQSJjQ http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=VDKVgG78VnI&feature=related You need videos of what is commonly known but believe 1600+ dead without any evidence? I expect you'll try and weasel out of the fact Russian planes were bombing civilian areas outside the conflict zone. I'll ask you this: Is this really the first time you are presented with the bombings of Gori? I doubt that. So why demand I post evidence? I think you are a fundamentally dishonest person. Some Georgians forces have been, as I admitted on the day of the attack, been rather unmindful of civilian casualties. The genocide on Ossetians you claim just isn't in evidence at all. Pointy is, I don't go around sticking halos on the Georgians. They were nasty and stupid. But you are a complete fanboi of the Russians who have, by most sources, had a big hand in provoking the conflict and have pretty dirty hands in the conflict. btw, throwing grenades into basements is, sadly, house to house fighting 101. In this the Georgians are not more evil then say, the Canadians in WW2. 11 year old are not old enough to fully know what they are doing, that's kinda why they aren't considered adults. Regardless of age, violence against a person may only be used in the immediate defence of yourself or other persons. "Teaching a lesson" is not deemed a valid legal defence to kick the snot out of a 11 year old kid in any civilized country. The attack on the Russians "peacekeepers" was, in view of Russian provocations and active support of violent rebels, legally justified even if practically stupid. Had the Russians behaved themselves they would have had a case for doing what they've done. With the dirty hands of the Russians and their allies, they are disgracing themselves further by their occupation of Georgia proper and their acquiescence in the ethnic cleansing of south Ossetia and neighbouring Georgian towns. You might want to comment on that ethnic cleansing. You fine with that going on? And once again you failed to answer my challenge on the 1600+ dead claim. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool breeze Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 I dont know much about this but from what I've heard it sounds like Russia's reaction has been very restrained, moderate, and forgiving compared to how the USA rolls. We've got CIA and dollars all up in the middle east manipulating and inciting things all over. I assume much like the Russians to do but we have way more power. But when we get involved with arms forces we dont let em off so easy. Gulf War One we incite with sanctions then when we go in we bomb over a hundred thousand as they retreat like we asked. In Gulf War Two we purposely target the waste treatment plants poisoning the countries water with raw sewage along mixing the soil with heavy metals via DU. Right? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 3 videos of the same airstrike, which i had mentioned in my previous post? You're going to have to do better than that. Why are you insisting that Ossetians are rebels? Ossetia was NEVER a part of Georgia - defending your land is an act of rebellion now? As for provocations, Georgians had plenty on their sides, from mortar attacks to things like turning off running water in S.Ossetia. Why is Georgia trying to take what does not belong to it and does not want to belong to it? And why "peacekeepers" with ""? They were there under UN mandate and did not fire unless in self-defense. My 1600 claim was based on previous reports, so i take it back for now (however Ossetians are still maintaining 1480 figure). Seeing 30 mins of Tschinkval wound and seeing the damage i do not believe 100-200 killed figures. I've seen what heavy artillery does sitting in a trench 300m behind and it is truly devastating. Fired on civilian districts of medium to dense population density will cause very heavy casulaties with extreme bodily damage (up to the point of nothing remaining from a person). I am not the "fanboi" of the Russians: 1) I am Russian born and bred, so dont call me fanboi 2) I disagree with alot of what is going on in Russia (how Chechnya was approached, profiteering off oil instead of restoring industry, oligarchy, powers given to enforcement agencies and etc.), but this time i believe Russia is 100% justified and did what every self-respecting nation would do. I bet if it was 17 Dutch peacekeepers murdered you would be singing a different tune, and if it was American soldiers then Tbilisi would be a parking lot by now. 3) I am also a Canadian (and quite proud to be one), so i have full access to objective information and understanding of Western perspective. I also did 5 years with Canadian Forces as part of a Para infantry regiment and cross-trained with Brits, Germans, and Americans and have utmost repect for them as soldiers and human beings. Seeing what Georgians did, I have zero repect for them and most of my friends in service are of the same opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 All parties in this conflict have dirty hands, Russia probably no less then the Georgians (or US Vassal so to speak ) What does frustrate me sometimes however, is how the Russians are portraited as the Evil Villains by the media of other Evil Villains, claiming that they are totally angels and so on (We will not tolerate any offence to those 'Democratic chosen' governments [...], freedom, [...] bla bla bla) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool breeze Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Oh, and it seems like a better analogy than the 11 and 4 year old one, which I liked,is a big ass mugger beating and stealing from an small weak person but your a skilled fighter and can stop him no prob and teach a lesson too so you step in and beat up the mugger. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Oh, and it seems like a better analogy than the 11 and 4 year old one, which I liked,is a big ass mugger beating and stealing from an small weak person but your a skilled fighter and can stop him no prob and teach a lesson too so you step in and beat up the mugger. Or a cute little bear: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool breeze Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 lol yeah! this character limit is silly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 7, 2008 Author Share Posted September 7, 2008 This vid should be called "Well, they looked competent" OR "Georgia's military before the Russo-Georgian War." Would imagine little of what we see is left. Most of the Georgian Navy, for example, is either sunk or seized. As we know, some of the armor wound up even worse off. The modders should find the high res footage of interest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghHgMMY5GcE&feature=related The Swedes produced some superb footage, but I can't tell what's being said. Judging from the map, it's covering the Russian counterstroke. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGgarUwHbuo&feature=related Here, the Georgian artillery apparently caught a Russian column and tore it up. Warning! Combat injuries shown! What's especially notable is that this vid explicitly confirms, in the most shocking manner, everything I said about not just Russian use of linear battery deployments, in this case, for 2S3s, but the near zero separation between vehicles. See for yourselves. This is news to me (see 0:34 et seq.) and raises several issues. If they were Georgian, why did they have American emblems? The alternative's even worse: Americans of some sort, maybe Blackwater? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBMQufrBWdg&feature=related Reports of Ukrainians crewing Georgian tanks and two black bodies found; not known whether they are Americans or not. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chainsaw Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghHgMMY5GcE&feature=related The Swedes produced some superb footage, but I can't tell what's being said. Judging from the map, it's covering the Russian counterstroke. give me a moment and I will have it translated. /Chainsaw 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chainsaw Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 give me a moment and I will have it translated. /Chainsaw Studio: Good afternoon, the fighting in Georgia are continuing now this ewening and the conflict risks to spread violently over the whole region. battles in the 2nd outbreaking republic Abkhazia was reported today and about continuess russian airstrikes over georgia. Reporter Johan Fredriksson leaves this report: "Caucasus in war again, here is one of the russian combat planes that was shot down by georgian artillery today. According to Georgia 10 combat planes has gone the same way. Russia claims its clearly less then that. What is clear is that the russian counteroffensive after georgias attempt to re-occupy Southesia yesterday have resulted in mayor devestation. How many who has been killed in this escelating conflict is at the moment unknown, but it can be thousands. Here in georgia the worry is spreading, eweryone is asking what will happen next, is Russia trying to crush the west friendly republic who wants to join NATO and EU or does moscow only want to give the goverment in tiblits a signal of who is really ruling in the region? but eweryone here we are meeting wishes support from the other countrys in the world. intervjuing a old man in blue cloths: "For more then 15 years have we been forced to put up with russian aggression. the world communion should say and do what have to be sayed and done, against russia." Georgias parlament did establish today that Georgia is in war with russia. State of emergency has been declared. The war actions here have been the worst in the region in more then 15 years. Ola Björnör: The violence started the night to yesterday when georgian military fired on the city of Tschinvali. Russia have bow spreaded out its troops over whole southesia and also mobilized parts of its black sea fleet outside the other outbreaking republic abchasin. Georgias airspace are in most parts controlled by russian airforce and several citys has been attacked, amongst them Poti and Gori. Today reports arrived about seperatist in abchasien have opened fire on georgian military installations, a serius escelation of the conflict. Telephone intervjue with Carl Bildt, swedens foreign minister: "when we have been woried as I have been the recent months for a outbreak of war its been more about it coming from abschesien then from southesia, the outbreak of war coming from southesia direction was partly supprising, the bigger worries/dangers are attached to abchasien. " Back in studio: Just recently we had new contact with Johan Fredriksson down in Georgia, he told us this about the situation this ewening: "we are located in batumi wich is a town thats located in the soutwestern corner of Georgia, normally a vacation center with 140 000 citizens. Now its a lights out Ghost town almost, ewen if the war havent reach it still the emergency of war is werry noticable. There is hardly any people outside, werry werry few cars outside, all bars and resturants are empty on people and its almost ghostlike atmosphere. Allot of Police cars on the streets and ewen plenty of military vehicles. The internet connection is also down, atleast nighttime they say here." Studio: What do they talk about, the few people you do find out? Johan Fredriksson: well there is big concerns about the future and a big fear about what gonna happen and many also ask themself what USA is doing, wich they see as their closest "allied"* and they are hopping for some kind of support from West" Studio: report from georgia just a while ago. End. *Cant find a word for it, not really allied but close friend. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 8, 2008 Author Share Posted September 8, 2008 Chainsaw, Help like yours is one of the things that makes these Forums so wonderful. The depth and breadth the members bring to our global table is simply marvelous. Thanks! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chainsaw Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Your more then welcome and you are so right in what you say. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 Saakashvili's saying things the Russians (and probably a bunch of NATO members) won't like regarding South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Vowed to reclaim them! http://earthboppin.net/talkshop/international/messages/43184.html Medvedev was crowing a bit, but he has something real to crow about. http://wiredispatch.com/news/?id=332698 Meanwhile, Kremlin-watchers warn of the possibility of a direct clash with Russia http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/51913.html It would also appear that the Russian are returning the favor of "playing in their lake" by taking a dip in "ours." http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080908/116618851.html Finally, Russia has an apparent major scientific breakthrough in high power generation http://english.pravda.ru/science/tech/04-09-2008/106296-electromagnetic_super_weapon-0 Oh, the dull, dull times in which we live! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 11, 2008 Author Share Posted September 11, 2008 Venezuela, it seems, has Russian visitors, 2 x Tu-160 BLACKJACK strategic bombers. http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/09/10/russia.venezuela/index.html?iref=mpstoryview Considering the U.S had fighters shadowing them once they arrived in neutral airspace, there must be some sore, tired fighter jockeys. This definitely will not calm the international situation, but it is a strong signal from Russia, I think, of its profound displeasure with the current situation. ISTR great consternation during my aerospace days over the Russians potentially basing their theater range BACKFIRE in Nicaragua, but this is really bopping the Eagle's beak, methinks, to bring in a pair of Russia's most modern and powerful strategic bombers into America's backyard, especially considering the Russian naval presence already notified. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 11, 2008 Author Share Posted September 11, 2008 Meanwhile, NATO vessels seem to be leaving the Black Sea! Reported by multiple links here. http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ned=&q=U.S.+Ships+Black+Sea&btnG=Search+News Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Apparently Chavez is taking one TU-160 for a test-drive himself. He claimed he has enough hours in the simulator. Venezuela is becoming quite a powerhouse, with probably most modern air force in South America. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 14, 2008 Author Share Posted September 14, 2008 Bigduke6, On an entirely different board I came across a copied transcript indicating not only that Putin was interviewed about Georgia and related matters by one Thomas Roth of German National Broadcast News, but that this interview was either suppressed outright in many cases here or presented only after censoring, as is alleged in the case of CNN. Would be very interested in your take on this matter, bearing in mind that it also seems to be a real hot potato from a number of angles. Can you confirm that there was such an interview, that it was legitimate, and that the English translation is accurate? I read both parts, and it seemed like a real Putin interview to me, both in terms of thoughts expressed and how they were presented. If you'd prefer, feel free to PEM me. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 14, 2008 Author Share Posted September 14, 2008 Bigduke6, Transposition error! Should've read "National German Broadcast Services," rather than as shown. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 14, 2008 Author Share Posted September 14, 2008 This just in...Russian forces are withdrawing from five Georgian checkpoints. This follows a visit to Russian President Medvedev by French President Nicolas Sarkozy on September 8. Russian forces will remain in a security zone around South Ossetia and Abkhazia until international peacekeepers arrive to secure it. http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/09/13/russia.georgia.withdrawal/index.html Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smaragdadler Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 Das Interview -> http://www.spiegelfechter.com/wordpress/392/das-interview (sorry only in German language) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 14, 2008 Author Share Posted September 14, 2008 Smaragdadler, I have a translation, but can you tell me more about Thomas Roth, who he is, where he fits into the scheme of things, etc.? For example, is he a mainstream news anchor, or someone on the fringe? If a fringe, which one, and what does it espouse? The translation I have was custom done for a site which I think I can safely assert would be deemed controversial, which is why I'm trying to separate the rat manure from the coffee, as we say here in the States! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 I doubt Putin would give and interview to a representative of alternative media. My guess is that Roth is as mainstream as it gets. Full Der Spiegelfechter interview vid with subtitles: Putin full CNN interview: Mdevedev CNN interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nI5c0D-84w&feature=related 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 14, 2008 Author Share Posted September 14, 2008 Incredible Georgian War find for grogs and scenario designers alike. All World Wars comes through big! Text, new photos, maps, the works! http://www.allworldwars.com/Battle%20for%20the%20South%20Ossetia%20August%202008.html The_Red_Rage, Thanks! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 John, hi, great find... Thanks All the best, Kip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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