Human fodder for the omnipotent AI.

[ChrisND]

I don't see what the challenge is, I am chugging along at Veteran. Granted I've have to reload a few times,but what's the point of a game that I can beat the first time through. Heck, I have never even played at a lower level. The more vocal folk are the ones who are trying to play as if this were CM or CC, which is really getting to old hat (obsession, anyone?).

[ChrisND]

Oh yeah, by the way, I have had very few LOS and LOF problems. Heck, I even find plenty of cover for my infantry! I keep them low and don't let them run around!

Whoever has a severe problem with their game, post screenshots here or some arrows and show what you are doing. I'll bet I can point out the problem immediately. Although at this point, it's an argument for the sake of it.

[Vladinir Schotitov]

Originally posted by MikoyanPT:

I think i am seeing a pattern here.

Most of the people that are more ferociously criticising the gameplay, are in fact frustrated for not being able to beat the AI.

War is not easy, isn´t it. The AI is though to crack but is beatable, just have to have the patience to develop superior tactics.

But that my friends takes time.

Right on Miguel. I was told that Training Mission 3 was impossible. But after listening to lots of advice I completed it. The AI was deadly at destroying my two AT teams but not the guns. I had 4 infantry dash over and reman and they then polished off all the tanks whose AI presumably thought that the ATs had been permanently silenced. Humans could easily make the same mistake.

[chanss]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

Oh yeah, by the way, I have had very few LOS and LOF problems. Heck, I even find plenty of cover for my infantry! I keep them low and don't let them run around!

Whoever has a severe problem with their game, post screenshots here or some arrows and show what you are doing. I'll bet I can point out the problem immediately. Although at this point, it's an argument for the sake of it.

Do you know why you have not found any LOF/LOS problems? It is because there is not any problems. Theres just a bunch a whiners that havent got the energy to sit down and and try the game out, if they DID they would find what you and I have found and that is; it IS possible to move Infantry undetected proning; LOS/LOF IS working but its not an ON/OFF simple LOS thing like in other games, it works by DEGRADING LOS.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by chanss:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Normal Dude:

Oh yeah, by the way, I have had very few LOS and LOF problems. Heck, I even find plenty of cover for my infantry! I keep them low and don't let them run around!

Whoever has a severe problem with their game, post screenshots here or some arrows and show what you are doing. I'll bet I can point out the problem immediately. Although at this point, it's an argument for the sake of it.

Do you know why you have not found any LOF/LOS problems? It is because there is not any problems. Theres just a bunch a whiners that havent got the energy to sit down and and try the game out, if they DID they would find what you and I have found and that is; it IS possible to move Infantry undetected proning; LOS/LOF IS working but its not an ON/OFF simple LOS thing like in other games, it works by DEGRADING LOS. </font>

[chanss]

Originally posted by BillyBob:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by chanss:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Normal Dude:

Oh yeah, by the way, I have had very few LOS and LOF problems. Heck, I even find plenty of cover for my infantry! I keep them low and don't let them run around!

Whoever has a severe problem with their game, post screenshots here or some arrows and show what you are doing. I'll bet I can point out the problem immediately. Although at this point, it's an argument for the sake of it.

Do you know why you have not found any LOF/LOS problems? It is because there is not any problems. Theres just a bunch a whiners that havent got the energy to sit down and and try the game out, if they DID they would find what you and I have found and that is; it IS possible to move Infantry undetected proning; LOS/LOF IS working but its not an ON/OFF simple LOS thing like in other games, it works by DEGRADING LOS. </font>

[molo]

I don't necessarily dislike the LOS/LOF currently in the game, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. When I play, AT guns that I cannot see nail my tanks and infantry (!) with first-round-on-target accuracy, enemy tanks snipe my AT guns in one shot, and my forces generally get slaughtered at 1500 m despite crawling around in what appears to be tall grass.

Maybe I'm not doing things right, but if that's the case then the game needs a much more obvious overlay of cover/concealment information. My ten years of playing the Close Combat series with realism mods and the time I spent with the original CM don't have a lot of value here.

[Moon]

Yes, Billybob, you seem to be getting it slowly. You post a thread, I respond, you respond. That's a mature discussion. Posting in someone's thread about difficulty levels or other things with a "who cares, my opinion about the game which I posted 100 times before is..." is not. For the former nobody is going to abuse or even accuse you. For the latter, you'll be banned the next time you do it.

Another important point about mature discussion is the way you deliver your message. The more you tend to make your viewpoint the one and only, the sharper the response from others will be if you're incorrect. And what's with your "arse" all the time? I would appreciate if you dont use profanities in almost every post you make.

As for the discussion at hand... this has been debated ad nauseum when CMx1 first came out, by people with originally the same kind of absolute viewpoints as you're voicing here. If situation X then outcome Y. CM has shown back then that this is simply not the case, so I am not going to rehash the whole discussion again.

The work Rune (thanks Rune!!) and others have done on the armor penetration calculations and gun/ammo data is based on all the same research and experience with CM. This isn't to say that there might not be bugs somewhere, I don't know, I haven't seen the source code. If there is, we're on the right track to finding out and tweaking.

Martin

[chanss]

Originally posted by molo:

I don't necessarily dislike the LOS/LOF currently in the game, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. When I play, AT guns that I cannot see nail my tanks and infantry (!) with first-round-on-target accuracy, enemy tanks snipe my AT guns in one shot, and my forces generally get slaughtered at 1500 m despite crawling around in what appears to be tall grass.

Maybe I'm not doing things right, but if that's the case then the game needs a much more obvious overlay of cover/concealment information. My ten years of playing the Close Combat series with realism mods and the time I spent with the original CM don't have a lot of value here.

What difficulty level are you on? I suspect your problems is due to the mission balancing that has been choosen for the game, it seems that the AI opponent in many cases has outstanding Gunner and Scout skills, much much better than what the gamers units itself has. Then what one gets is theese one shot kills AI units. I sugest you try the game on lower difficulty to start, it sure is difficult enough anyway. I hope Battlefront will tweak the scenarios a bit in an upcoming patch.

[molo]

Originally posted by chanss:

What difficulty level are you on? I suspect your problems is due to the mission balancing that has been choosen for the game, it seems that the AI opponent in many cases has outstanding Gunner and Scout skills, much much better than what the gamers units itself has. Then what one gets is theese one shot kills AI units. I sugest you try the game on lower difficulty to start, it sure is difficult enough anyway. I hope Battlefront will tweak the scenarios a bit in an upcoming patch.

Actually, after the initial slaughterfests on Veteran, I dropped it down to the absolute lowest level and it still happens.

[Dennis50]

Moon,

In the single missions and campaigns does the AI always start with 100% scout ability, 100% gunner ability ..if it does, wouldn't it be better if it were a random thing. It seems like the AI enemy is always expert everything and the human player is not. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way ..just seems that's the way it goes.

Regards,

Gunz

[Tontoman]

Originally posted by Vladinir Schotitov:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikoyanPT:

I think i am seeing a pattern here.

Most of the people that are more ferociously criticising the gameplay, are in fact frustrated for not being able to beat the AI.

War is not easy, isn´t it. The AI is though to crack but is beatable, just have to have the patience to develop superior tactics.

But that my friends takes time.

Right on Miguel. I was told that Training Mission 3 was impossible. But after listening to lots of advice I completed it. The AI was deadly at destroying my two AT teams but not the guns. I had 4 infantry dash over and reman and they then polished off all the tanks whose AI presumably thought that the ATs had been permanently silenced. Humans could easily make the same mistake. </font>

[Krull]

In my experience, Tontoman, after i've remanned the same ATG it gets targeted.

I've remanned the same gun 4 times & had the crews both targeted & killed.

[maniac_mat]

if there is no LOS problem then explain this:

clearly he cannot see the second tank as it is from 1st person view, then why is the icon still solid red, and im being shot at by those tanks. And no the messege at the bottom is not from that tank, it is from an earlier tank.

[HardRock]

Did you look through the magnified gunsight..or the commanders binocs?

[BFCElvis]

maniac_mat, from that screen shot I can see no trees between the friendly unit and tank #1. I only see 2 bushes. Neither of which would hide a tanks. As for tank #2 I see several low bushes and 1 tree. Also not enough for a tank to hide behind.

Tanks are fairly large objects and this game is modeling trees as individual trees and bushes as individual bushes. One tree (or 10 trees for that matter) and a couple/few bushes will not block the visual or sound LOS to a large machine going clickity clack. Dense forest, bocage, heavy and thick terrain are not what is modeled here. If you have a beef I believe it should be that those types of terrain aren't represented not that the system as designed if flawed.

From previous posts you have made I understand that you are having a hard time with this. My post is not meant as sarcastic I am only trying to help you understand what you are seeing (mostly because your asked).

[maniac_mat]

your not serious are you? are people THAT blind? regardless if its only one tree and one bush. the tree is big and is a couple feet away from the tank, and the tank is 1000m away. i mean seriously, im not bashing the game im jsut saying there is no way in hell my tank can see that tank. the evidence is RIGHT THERE how can you say. " oh well its one tree tanks are big they have uber sights bla bla bla" its rediculous.

EDIT:oh and by the way, i never said i dont think he could see number 1, becuz i believe the spotter would be able to see 1, just not 2. no way. and another thing, there is no such thing as sound LOS.... haha kind of funny.

[Wally's World]

Well as someone who has only tried the demo, I think maniac_mat may have a point. Especially if that second tank is 1000m away like maniac says it is.

[molo]

If you guys can actually pick out the tanks (not the gas station signs floating over them) in that screenshot, I'd be happy to know where.

I think maniac's got a very valid example of a definite problem.

[HardRock]

So you can't see it with the naked eye. That's not surprising.

Look at some light trees outside sometime. Now look with high powered binoc.

Also scouting experiences not only helps you to spot but adds to your concealment behind such things as brushes etc.

I wonder if everyone has read the spotting rules. If not read them..and then read them again.

The colored icon is what the developer gives you for LOS...not the birds eye graphic view.

The colored or faded icon is simulating a lot of factors than pure los.

and muzzle flash is modeled.

[BFCElvis]

maniac_mat, here is where you may be mistaken. A tank at 1000m when viewed from eye level in the game would appear very small if represented properly. A tank at that distance appearing the same size as one that is 200m away would not be at all accurate. However, if a tank is 1000m away or 200m away 1 tree would not blocks its LOS. It may appear very small on the viewable screen because it is 1000m away but 1 tree would no more block its LOS at that distance than it would at 10m. And as I said 10 trees wouldn't block it. As a matter of fact if it is 1000m away that explains the screenshot btter. If you had the same shot and said it was 100m away I would question why the enemy tank did not appear larger on the screen. As I said in a previuos post...If you live anywhere besides a city look out your neareest window and look at the trees. If there were a tank on the other side of the first 5, 10, 5 ,20 of the trees in your field of vision would you be able to see it? The answer is yes. If you can look out your window and see trees count he number of trees you can see through before a tank would be completely blocked from your vision. All this is not even taking into account what you can spot from hearing. I guess what I am saying is to look at the world around you when deciding if what the game is displaying matches the real world not preconceived notions based on other games. Again, it is not modeling "woods" it is modeling individual trees.

[BFCElvis]

maniac_mat (I'm really really really sincerly not trying to bust your stones) I believe your complaints about LOS are a fundemental misunderstanding of what is being represented. Once you understand what the terrain is like you will better understand that it is not that aspect of the LOS system that is wrong. What you really want is (now I'm trying to get into your head) heavy woods to be represented. That is what you should be asking for.

"regardless if its only one tree and one bush. the tree is big and is a couple feet away from the tank, and the tank is 1000m away" Is what you said. Picture an open field 1000m from end to end. One tree seperates you froma tank. That tree is parked anywhere between you and the tank. Would you be able to see the tank? Of course you could. How many trees and bushes would you have to add to completely block your LOS? Think about and look out your window or drive to the country for research.

[ April 30, 2007, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Elvis ]

[maniac_mat]

ok im done, you talk to me like im a 5 year old. it is not a misunderstanding of whats being represented. put your hand right in front of your face, hey look you cant see anything, put your hand further out, wow you can see more. that my simple explanation, i dont need to try to sound smart liek you are. you cant tell me you would be able to see the tank through that tree, even with binocs when it is that far away. the tank even looks like it could be bhind a hill, which is even more wierd. if it was a tree with no leaves then maybe, but its a full fledged tree, and there are more. how can you say that 10 trees dont block anymore LOS then 1 tree?

[maniac_mat]

Originally posted by HardRock:

So you can't see it with the naked eye. That's not surprising.

Look at some light trees outside sometime. Now look with high powered binoc.

Also scouting experiences not only helps you to spot but adds to your concealment behind such things as brushes etc.

I wonder if everyone has read the spotting rules. If not read them..and then read them again.

The colored icon is what the developer gives you for LOS...not the birds eye graphic view.

The colored or faded icon is simulating a lot of factors than pure los.

and muzzle flash is modeled.

i know the colored icon is for LOS, thats the point im making, the tank is a million times smaller then that icon, why would i possible think the icon is a birds eye graphic of the tank? if the tank was as big as the icon then of course you would be able to see it.

[HardRock]

The size of the icon has nothing to do with anything nor anything to do with birds eye view.

It is simply a tool Colored means you can see him. This takes into account other factors. read the manual.

Spotting is not done from birdseye view.