An old CMer's first impression.

[Chazman]

I knew this game wasn't going to be CM in the respect of it being RTS, but I did expect a similar interface and camera views as CM had.

So far I found this game to be unweildy compared to CM as far as zooming into the action, it also has fewer units, but a much larger maps, which also make it hard to manuever around to see the action.

I like the concept of this game, but I think it would be better served with much smaller maps, limiting it to only a few squads, and vehicles yet having a much closer up veiw of everything.

I also miss the computer generated maps and missions, this game is going to get real old, real fast having the same set piece fortifications and starting points.

I loved CM for the way tactics and setup came about, this game so far, for me, has traded all of that away for eye candy (which is actually very hard to zoom in on and see).

Gone are the ambushes with a panzerfaust team lying in wait in a building, gone are the placeable fortifications, mines, barbed wire, and road blocks.

Gone so far also, is the FUN!

Geez, couldn't have you guys just upgraded the graphics on CM, that's all we really wanted, TOW's graphics on CM would have been great, you fixed something that wasn't broke!

[ April 20, 2007, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Chazman ]

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Chazman, BFC are the publisher of the game, not the developer. As such they had no influence what design decisions 1C chose to make during development. Not that some polishing hasn't taken place since BFC agreed to publish this game.

Don't worry, a new and improved Combat Mission is still on the horizon. After CM:SF there will be a WW2 CM.

And give ToW a chance. It's quite different indeed, but can be real fun too. It just takes some getting used to, especially for the Grognards amongst us.

[Chazman]

As long as this current, unwieldy "camera" interface remains, and you end up moving troops around on the mini map, this game is going nowhere for me.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I do miss the way you could {ctrl}+{click} on the battlefield to travel there, yes. THe zoom function would've been sweet to have too. In all other things I find the ToW camera interface superior.

I guess it takes all sorts, huh? Sorry to hear you are so disappointed.

[Chazman]

Without the interface to easily see the improved "eye candy", what good is it??

To win at this game, I was forced to manuever my troops around on the mini-map, geez, that is a step down in my opinion.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

If you had to go that far, i'm inclined to think you are doing something wrong. What is causing difficulties? Navigating the map? Orientating the camera? Altitude control?

You are aware the middle mouse button operates the 'free look' mode?

[Loaf]

I am a long-time player of the CM series, and I have been trying out the ToW demo... I just completed the "combat tactics" training scenario.

The first time I played Combat Mission, I tried rushing the enemy with tanks, and of course got whacked immediately. Naturally I had to learn about line of sight, hull down positions for tanks, how to use infantry with armour, etc. Never got too good at it mind you, but I have fun trying.

Tonight when I started the ToW combat tactics tutorial, my tanks started towards the enemy trenches as soon as I un-paused the game. I ordered them to halt, but they kept moving anyhow. I helplessly watched them charge the enemy, waiting for them to go up in flames, but they did not.

Meanwhile, my infantry started taking casualties, so I left them prone at the back of the map and waited. One tank was knocked out within grenade-range of the enemy trench, the others routed the enemy.

Now it's time for the next trench-line... I left my infantry prone with no orders (they got shot up a bit anyway) and ordered my tanks to drive right over the enemy trench-line. My tanks knocked out the enemy AT guns before I even noticed them and once again routed the enemy, this time with no casualties. The infantry did not move at all.

Third trench line - same story. My infantry kept their noses in the dirt, my armour wiped out enemy armour and AT guns with no prompting from me. One tank lost some crewman and my infantry took some casualties; the enemy were routed.

Attacking in this fashion would have been suicidal in CM. It does not appear that the player needs to learn anything about tactics to win this scenario... In fact applying any kind of realistic tactics would seem to be counter-productive.

Even if things do get more challenging, I find the game a bit confusing. I can't tell who has line of sight to what, or tell what units are being engaged. I must say I feel a bit discouraged, although the game looks spectacular...

Somebody tell me why I should keep playing!

[Sfox28]

Obviously some of you complainers must love the 2 minute or so intervals that the CM series has and the 3 man representive that each hang/man stick figure represents. There are a lot of things that need tweking, so in the meantime GO play something else. The rest of us will try and fix things we find wrong and move on with a real feel of big space combat. Not every battle in WWII was fought in a small area or town/city. I'll let it develope before I kick it to the curb!

[H.W. Guderian]

I was REALLY looking forward to ToW.

Sorry to say I have to agree with both Loaf and Chazman on most of their points.

Sure, it would be VERY nice to have ToW graphics on CM but under the hood and behind the pretty face ToW doesn't deliver anything like the authentic battle simulations available in CM.

So while I'm sure it will appeal to some section of the market, IMHO it will leave hardcore digital CO's, ones looking for realistic simulations, disapointed and frustrated.

Looks nice though . . . kudos to the graphic artists!

I think the worst thing is that this game looks so good - and that makes the core flaws all that more frustrating and hard to take?

Hope others enjoy it more than I did and I hope that BattleFront get out of it what they need to to keep on developing REAL wargames.

[Hits button to delete ToW Demo off the HD]

How long will we have to wait for WW2 CM:SF?

:confused:

[Loaf]

Sfox28, while I am a fan of the Combat Mission series, my comments about the game are not based on a dislike for open-space combat. Combat Mission had plenty of maps much larger and more open than the ToW tutorial maps.

In terms of my reaction to playing the training mission I describe above, the fact that the terrain is open actually has a lot to do with why I was taken aback. Charging prepared positions with limited cover or dead ground should be very challenging - should in fact be nearly impossible without overwhelming force or artillery support.

The tutorial actually encourages you to drive your tanks right over the trenches - in the absence of supporting infantry this should be very dangerous for the tanks, unless the enemy panics.

Who knows - maybe the tutorial is set up so you are facing green troops. Maybe I am over-reacting. That's kind of why I posted here...

I have no interest in any "You're a complainer"/"You're a fanboy" nonsense. And yes, you're right - the graphics in ToW are very nice and the rendering of each individual soldier is far more immersive than the abstraction of Combat Mission.

[Grunts]

Geez, couldn't have you guys just upgraded the graphics on CM, that's all we really wanted, TOW's graphics on CM would have been great, you fixed something that wasn't broke!

Ditto

[Hpt. Lisse]

Ha! Hoo boy, that's rich. Start a TOW campaign on "realistic", my friend, and it's going to make the film Deliverence look like Disneyland.

[Lanzfeld]

Yeah...

After playing the demo for a few hours I am going to have to pass on TOW for now. So pretty but nothing under the hood that resembles a realistic WW2 simulator. You know the complaints: useless troops, pointless AT assets, No buildings to enter, lame maps.

I think that somebody said it best when they said "we just want CM with better graphics". Amen brother. Can you imagine CM with some work done to make the buildings more realistic? Make the buildings closer together and more variation to them? HEAVEN! I am going to go back to CM PBEM and see what happens to TOW. I don't hate it...just doesnt feel deep enough.

[Horus]

i love my CMBB

hope bfc makes some money with TOW, its a nice game

for some people.

but i think if BFC had made a grahic pimped CMBB they would get the same money with less work ?

whatever i´m looking for CMSF and hey BFC gave me one of the best games ever : CMBB

[Moon]

TOW and CM are two entirely different games, made by different developers, and with different design goals. They are catering to a somewhat different audience, too. TOW spans the bridge between the regular RTS crowd and wargamers to some extent. I bet many people who play and like it will be ready for CMx2 and understand it. That's a good thing for us, and for the genre.

It's good to have variety and options. It's better than to have the same game cloned over and over, like most of the other publishers do.

Martin

[Horus]

It's better than to have the same game cloned over and over, like most of the other publishers do.

not if you have a quality game like civilization or CM

but i understand your point clearly.

[DeLaVega]

The maps are big? Right now I`m playing the german campaign and very often (except there`s a hill in the middle of the map) the units shoot each other right after the placement phase. I thought the maps were much bigger. Maybe they are in the other campaigns. But don`t think so. :-(

[Fullhouse]

Loaf.

The training missions are all set to easy and in the first two attacks the enemy AI is nerfed to give the noob player a chance. Therefore most of the realism has been reduced to help the noob player get a handle on the controls without being slaughtered.

[guttersnipe]

My favourite bit of CM seems to have gone too (unless I've missed something blindingly obvious) - in multiplayer is there any way to 'buy' your own force set up? I loved this feature in CM - made the game so much more random & unpredicatable against a felklow human - not knowing what the other side was bringing in to bat made the MP tension so much more enjoyable. is there any way this can be implemented in ToW? Can't even keep the secretary element by using the editor to produce a custom set-up each time.....

[huhr]

well, i wish i would have read the post before buying since I rather play a hard core ww2 game instead of "Another" game that tries to cater to the RTS crowd. I mean, they have enough games to play and why do we need to cater to that crowd unless its a way to make money which of course is the purpose of this whole enterprise. However, the game should be marketed that way. I will purchase the campaign game of cmbb but I hope its directed and sold to the hard core gaming community instead of pulling in the RTS gamers who rather play Warcraft and Rise of Nations along with the Empire Earth series.

[Capt. Toleran]

Hi,

I'm not a fanboy by any means (check some of my more critical posts over the past 7 years), but I feel I need to step in to defend and clarify what this product is. All of the below is opinion only, so please take it as such.

TOW was not meant to be a CMBB/AK replacement. That's what CMSF and their WWII equivalent ilk will be, as CM is the flagship product of BFC, the one they built from the ground up. TOW was built on older software, and not by BFC. BFC polished it and made it more real, but they can't change everything, and they shouldn't. For the past 7 years, people asked for a RTS realistic WWII game, now they have it. If that is not for you, don't buy it. CMx2 will have WeGo, so you should be happy.

TOW is a sideshow, a distraction until CMSF comes out, and it's a good one. True, cover doesn't seem to count for much. True, units seem to move around a bit strangely sometimes (though not any worse than they do in CMx1, esp. tanks making bonehead moves, if anything, there is less of that here). Still, the damage modeling is pretty nice, WWII tactics still have to be real (the trench-charging in the demo is supposed to be too easy, it is a chance for you to get the controls down, not teaching you tactics). If you use CMBB tactics, you will win. If you just charge, you will be slaughtered on the normal maps (Try the St. Lo mission if you don't believe me).

Some tips for better gameplay --

1. Read the manual (RTFM for other nerds out there).

2. When you need your troops to stay put and stay prone, give them the "Hold Position" command

3. Use formations, that's what they are there for, and reissue the orders if they get shot up or pinned. Just like CMSF, have your troops hunker down (hard without good cover, I know) until your tanks and arty have the enemy supressed.

4. Don't micromanage, but do try to herd your troops. Also, assign them to quick keys (grab a group, hit ctrl-1, now when you hit the 1 key, you'll have all those troops selected) for easier management. The game is similar to the Total War series in many of the strategies and management ideas that make things winnable.

5. Have fun. Enjoy the Zen of the moment, zoom in on the battle, hear the sounds, see the effects. If you lose the mission, oh well. 2 months from now you'll be playing CMSF, and will be able to do instant replay to your heart's content. Savor this appetizer, wait for the main meal to satisfy your appetite.

[Chazman]

If this is the "appetizer", I just lost my appetite!

[theBrit]

Originally posted by Chazman:

If this is the "appetizer", I just lost my appetite!

Ok so you dont like it, along with many other guys. Ok thanks for your impressions, some valid points that I am sure the Dev's will read.

I suppose this means you'll not be posting here again?

[Destraex]

no surprises in this thread LOL

[Hinkar]

Anyone know how to change the mouse controls in TOW??

In CM, moving the mouse left rotates the view.

In TOW, moving the mouse left moves the view left.

Driving me mad.

The defining keys doesn't seem to allow you to change this.

Can It Be Done???