why do some hate rts games?

[Dirtweasle]

...or cares one way or another.

[WineCape]

Wine? Anyone...?

[MorgTzu]

Yes...a white Zinfandel would be nice about now...this is after all a hobby (forum watching, not game playing..that's oh so much more serious). But you know real life is still just a wee bit more interesting, maybe not as funny, but more...u know, life-like.

And yes, I got wasted at least a dozen times trying to keep my "guys" alive on M1.

[Wodin]

Lack of realism and lack of control. Also they usually run way to fast.

Close Combat series and more recently the Panther Games series are in my opinion two of the best wargame series made. Yet I usually hate RTS games. They prove it can be done and I have high hopes for this game.

If it succeeds then it will be one of my all time favourites.

[BCW]

American conquest and Cossacks 2 so for are my favorite RTS...however Cossacks 2 gives a pretty sucky rendertion of the Napoleonic wars. American conquest isn't that great but they got some killer MODs for it.

[Kellysheroes]

{{My objection is that people are unable to leave it at "rubs me the wrong way." They feel compelled to denigrate the RTS genre and everyone who plays them with their snide commentary of "twitch kiddies" "he who clicks fastest wins" etc etc.}}

When the shoe fits, wear it.

{{We're a partner of Direct2Drive, and we also have firm plans to release the game in retail, too.

Martin

}}

That's good Martin, the game should do well then providing the mainstream review mags and websites see it as a good game. Even if many of your old die hard grogs won't be buying it. Stick with turn based or wego and we'll follow you to doomsday.

Now to futher shoot the breeze. You know what I'm seeing guys (my grogier friends out there). This move away from us after we support a company and get them on their feet, then they desert us for more "mainstream" games and sales.

Take for example Creative Assembly and the Total War series. Now, you don't find an awful lot of grogs that didn't enjoy Shogun and MTW origional and their expansions. But, look what CA did to us with Rome Total Crap War!! They turned it into a kiddiefied strategy game and combat kiddie clickfest of a game. Took our hard earned money made some excellent bucks off of us, then TURNED on us like we were maggots on dung.

Example II, though this is not a wargame, the series has been a highly acclaimed ROLE PLAYING series since they first released ARENA, then came Daggerfall and Morrowind, all 3 excellent "role playing" games for the die hard role players out there. THEN they come out with this crap ACTION RPG game called Oblivion and has mainstream mini fricking games to play to build up your skills lol. Real time combat based on a FPSer type of engine and gone are the role playing elements that made the series so popular. Once again another company that lived and thrived on the hard core fans to build it up some clout and then abaondoned them just like that.

Now we have CMX2 (yeah I'm gonna bust on them too) A flippin modern day "module" that 1/2 their fan base doesn't even want and it's going to be REAL TIME ALSO....but, you can play it in turns if you want to. Well to me this reeks of Oblivion once again. Created for the console first and then ported over to the PC. I have an awful bad feeling having real time elements in the game the turn based part is going to be...OH BUT WE MEANT YOU CAN "PAUSE" the game, we didn't really mean it plays like a WEGO game...sorry for the confusion.! yeah right. Once again though we the hard-core filled their pockets and then they TURN on us like this and making something completely off the wall that nobody wants. (well I don't want it ain't buyin it either. I'll show them. hahaha

Example IV: Good ole "Lords of the Realms" what a pos crap game LOR III turned out to be eh? From two previous versions we all loved to some craptastic real time bs everyone hated.

And this movement just seems to keep growing. I won't be surprised if Mad Minute Games isn't bitten by the hey lets turn this into a REAL TIME KIDDIE CLICKFEST and we'll sell thousands of copies on the mainstream market. Mark my words I wrote them here today. MAD MINUTE will screw you in the long run also. Lol I know they will cause they want to quit their regular jobs and do this fulltime for a living. Welp, to make the big bucks yah gotta go mainstream and that means crapola for us hard-core gamers out here.

Gaming and games was so much better when all these little guys remained little guys and worked out of their basements or garages and we reaped these rewards in the 80's and 90's. But, then the money bug bit most of them and now, now we get WARCRAFT III lol. And 1000 other clones of DUNE. lol

And soon breaking thru the doorway of mainstream sales.dah dah dah dat dah daaaaaah.... TOW.

[ August 10, 2006, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Kellysheroes ]

[Barkhorn1x]

...commenting on KellysHeroes rant:

Oh my god chicken-little! Don't let the sky hit you on your way out.

Barkhorn.

[moneymaxx]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

We used to love our RTS games (for some of us we're talking more than 15 years ago) but we grew apart, took different paths, and the relationship didn't last.

Exactly, I loved Dune II, Command & Conquer and of course Starcraft. But after more then a decade of using the basic principles of Dune II it's getting boring. For me that is, but most probably not for the kiddies for whom Warcraft III is the same experience as Dune II was for me. So we might see clones of Dune II for the next couple of decades if not centuries since there will be new player generations who will want to play and more important buy games like Warcraft XXV.

Though the above games are usually described as RTS that doesn't mean that ALL RTS have to be that way. I consider Harpoon an RTS and that was hardly a click fest. The Close Comabt series as well was RT and I liked the time pressure and the partial loss of control when things started to get a little hectic (Megakill said that ToW will be more like CC).

Therefore the fact that ToW will be RT doesn't say much about it's quality. There are hundreds of aspects that are more important which we can't judge until we see the demo. The TacAI (just to name one) will be crucial. E.g. What do the units do when they are not player controlled and a new threat appears, do they react according to the threat (retreating, hiding, consider it a minor threat and go on as planned etc.) or do they just wait for the player input, maybe even getting killed in the meantime. This is one aspect that CM did so well, while most other RTS doesn't even seem to have a TacAI. In an RT based game a well done TacAI would considerably reduce the workload of the player trying to micromanage everything, would make "clicking" less important and therefore would free time to control and plan.

I think there is still hope in RTS and maybe ToW becomes my new love .

[ August 10, 2006, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: moneymaxx ]

[BCW]

As said by kellysheroes.

"then TURNED on us like we were maggots on dung".

After a brief research on Dung and beetles.

Dung usually referes to cattle, elephant, and dinosaurs. From what I know maggots are not so much on dung but rather poo. dogs, cats, sheep ect. The Dung beetle however is the one that would more likely be on this dung you speak of.

[GI Jas]

I think I caught the tail end of this topic but here it goes.

I am a Grand Srategy freak. I want to not only control an army or division (panzer of course) but I want a map or world to conquer along with it.

You may think this is leading toward the TW series and your exactly right, it is. If your going to play WWI - WW2 games then do it all the way and not just as a general or whatever, but as Stalin, Roosevelt, Mussolini, etc. Creative had the best idea: mix Turn Base with RTS.

Really, RTS and Turn Based games that flavor the second WW are not big enough for me. I am looking for a Clash of Nations kind of game. Need I say more?

[MorgTzu]

Yeh...you could say, "see ya on the TW forums"

I'll tell ya what I did to relieve my "grand" strat fever so everyone can have a good laugh.

I don't like HOI, or Matrix' version...and I tried the demo for Battlefront's and it was ok, probably captured the ww2 "feel" the best, even in it's simplicity. But none of them did it for me. I wanted a real thinking game that involved it all. Sooooo... I pulled out my dusty copy of Civ3 (Laugghgh scoffers mit conquest expansion and fired up the ww2 Europe, SFB (small, fast, beautiful) mod and tried to survive as Spain on emperor level. Damn fine mod with all custom units and a good historical "feel" to it. As silly as it is, civ3 has so much more depth and dynamic options to it than any of the so-called ww2 grand strat games. I could write a 6 page AAR because it realy was an engrossing game that lasted months with sometimes only 1 or 2 turns played over a 2 hour stretch as I just sat and thought of my plan for the next 10 turns and investigated all the diplomatic dynamics involved. And yup, a dynamic grand campaign would be much nicer for TOW than what I see coming, but I'll still get it and probably like it

[RMC]

Originally posted by Kellysheroes:

Once again though we the hard-core filled their pockets and then they TURN on us like this and making something completely off the wall that nobody wants.

As if BFC was ever only going to make prettier versions of CM for the scooter-bound, arthritic troglodytes who can't help but bitch about everything under the sun.

[PseudoSimonds]

Originally posted by Kellysheroes:

Now we have CMX2 (yeah I'm gonna bust on them too) A flippin modern day "module" that 1/2 their fan base doesn't even want and it's going to be REAL TIME ALSO....but, you can play it in turns if you want to. Well to me this reeks of Oblivion once again. Created for the console first and then ported over to the PC. I have an awful bad feeling having real time elements in the game the turn based part is going to be...OH BUT WE MEANT YOU CAN "PAUSE" the game, we didn't really mean it plays like a WEGO game...sorry for the confusion.! yeah right. Once again though we the hard-core filled their pockets and then they TURN on us like this and making something completely off the wall that nobody wants. (well I don't want it ain't buyin it either. I'll show them. hahaha

So on one hand they're just going for the money and on the other hand they're making a game that nobody wants. Well, which is it?

And what's with this arrogance that they owe you anything? If anything you owe them for selling you a game that had waaaaay more bang for the buck than the vast majority of games out there. They're a company, not your personal little elves, here to do your bidding. Get a grip.

[88mm]

To me: real time strategy games are fake.

If it really was "real time" , where are the breaks, the moments your troop rest, regroup and refit ?

Instead, you get "real time" action, non stop.

Aldo i liked playing AOE 1 and 2, also online. While i could keep up with the kiddies reasonable well (aldo i hated those tower-rushers), today (or yesterday..lol) i would be totally overwhelmed by alot of them. Not because i don't know the game mechanics, or what to use when etc., just simply because they are outspeeding me, or anyone else with less mouse/keyboard skills.

Futhermore , where's the funn, when you hardly see anything onscreen (since it goes so fast from spot to spot) since you are so busy with ctrl-d, b, ctrl-f, a, ctrl, crtl, ctrl...etc.etc.

Reminds me of a girlfrind, who loves Warcraft 3 (i done 1 and 2 long before, played them while i was still fast enough, and the funny remark of your troops), So warcraft 3 lost it charm to me.

She beated me, time and time again. Only because she was the fastest clicker (and maybe understood better what to build, how much and when, due to my lack of interest in this game).

However, i totally wrecked here in CIV3, Caesar 3 and emperor. Where tactical and strategical insight are THE factors to succeed, and speed of clickin doesn't matter!

So, aldo you also have to think tactical/strategical in a RTS (well some), ANY player with high-speed control of keyboard/mouse have a HUGE advantage. Too much for my likings.

[Kellysheroes]

{{As if BFC was ever only going to make prettier versions of CM for the scooter-bound, arthritic troglodytes who can't help but bitch about everything under the sun}}

Don't worry son, you're days a comin to that rockin chair as well, then you won't be so scatter brained and boisterous as you are now.

{{And what's with this arrogance that they owe you anything? If anything you owe them for selling you a game that had waaaaay more bang for the buck than the vast majority of games out there. They're a company, not your personal little elves, here to do your bidding. Get a grip.}}

Oh there's no doubt they can do whatever the heck they please. I just won't be buying into it as many more won't as well. And good ole player advertising does a lot for a company, both good and BAD! Notice how STARFORCE is losing some of it's customer base now? Thanks to good ole player advertising.

[gunnersman]

For me CC2 was my first real intro into RT gaming. And I loved it. Mostly because it was a WW2 theme and there was a bigger objective involved. I started to lose interest in the rest of the series after CCIII.

Command and Conquer was next. I loved it, at first. It was novel, to me. But that formula of "resource gathering" and "tanks slugging it out while they wear each other down" got old for me real quick. Be it Starcraft or whatever.

Most RTS games move too fast for me. That and there is the hierarchy of "you need this type of unit to destroy this type of unit". That gets tiresome too.

For me, personally, I've always stuck to the WW2 themes because it is what I am familiar with. Unless it had a C&C format. Blah!

It has a been a trial and error expirience. Albeit expensive.

LOL! Thanks for that memory Barkhorn!

[Darkmath]

Before I play CM, I played some RTS games such as Command and Conquer, Warcraft II, Total Annihilation, Age of Empire and a demo of CC1.

The two things which annoys me are the following ;

1) Lack of realism and paper-rock-scissor strategy.

In C&C, I could not admit that a tank can be destroyed by a dozen of soldier with M16, while this tank made as much damage as their M16, nor that an bone and flesh made Ultralisk in Starcraft have 2 times the hit point of an armoured tank!!

I didn't like the hit point sytem at all.

Another thing I dislike is the oversimplistic strategical system you have, for example in Red Alert. For mass firepower and endurance, choose the Soviet, while if you want mobility , choose the Allies. That sucks.

I don't like the caricatural advantage/disadvantage of different side as the RTS games often represent.

The lack of realism is so high that, IMO, it is unconvincing

2) Click fest.

As mentionned above, the ppl who click faster have a huge advantage,whereas sometimes well prepared and sophisticated orders does not last long.

3)Pool table map of old RTS game.

The RTS game I prefer was Close Combat, because for once I played to a convincing (i.e. realistic) RT tactical game. The problem was the pool table map. This kind of map is not much different on other RTS, where you have at most 2 level of elevation. One exception is Total Annihilation, where you can see vehicles slowing down when moving on a slope.

The other wargames at the time were turn based,which I don't like.

When the "We go" system of came in, CM still bring me nowadays a lot of interest towards the game and its mechanism.

The problem is a battle in CM is very long in a hotseat game.

[ August 13, 2006, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Darkmath ]

[PseudoSimonds]

Originally posted by Kellysheroes:

Oh there's no doubt they can do whatever the heck they please. I just won't be buying into it as many more won't as well. And good ole player advertising does a lot for a company, both good and BAD! Notice how STARFORCE is losing some of it's customer base now? Thanks to good ole player advertising.

So you're saying you're going to give them bad advertising just because they didn't make the game that you wanted them to? Even that is a load of crap since the WWII game is already scheduled to be the second title.

And of course you've already determined that the WEGO/real time hybrid system won't work. Why? Who knows, because like the rest of your arguments it isn't based on any logic or knowledge of what the game will be like.

Oh, and you still haven't addressed whether BFC is out to make a money grab with CMSF or whether they're making a game that nobody wants. I'm still confused about that one.

[Shmavis]

Originally posted by Kellysheroes:

I just won't be buying into it as many more won't as well. And good ole player advertising does a lot for a company, both good and BAD! Notice how STARFORCE is losing some of it's customer base now? Thanks to good ole player advertising.

We shall rue this day, eh? I'll go on and start ruing now.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by ComradeP:

I'm not American (and personally, I'm glad that I'm not)

We're glad you're not, either.