ATGMs

[MarkEzra]

Hi Big Duke: That you gave a general order will be influenced by amount of ammo, perceived threat, and a dice roll or two, I expect. Had you given the AT 4 crew a specific target command you most likely would have gotten a faster result. As it was you gave a general command and they blew the target to hell more slowly then you would have preferred.

[thewood]

The issue to me is in WEGO, you don't always have the luxury of giving a specific target command. I have seen ATGM also very slow to react. with arcs. Haven't observed if its suppression or not.

[Bigduke6]

No, they has a specific target command throughout. But for reasons that I don't understand, the crew chose not to engage at long range where it was pretty safe, but waited until point blank, where if they had missed they would have been hosed in seconds.

Fair enough if the dice rolls are guilty, it happens.

[Battlefront.com]

Couple of quick answers...

Most of the Syrian ATGM equipment lacks night capabilities, though IIRC the AT-14 has it and perhaps the RPG-29. Can't remember off the top of my head.

The problem with the TacAI targeting is twofold:

1. Limited supply of ammo

2. Firing generally reveals position, which usually results in a quick death for the ATGM team

In fact, the AT-3 has a problem in that the missile files so slowly that it is possible for the crew to be killed/suppressed before the missile can strike the intended target! And since it is crew guided, that generally means that if someone so much as shoots at the AT-3 team during missile flight it is likely to miss (it's likely to miss anyway, though, since it is very inaccurate).

So, the problem is... how much tactical freedom should the TacAI have in deciding when to fire and when not to? Picture you wanting to hit an Abrams you know is on the map and having your only ATGM team blow up a Humvee that any number of other units in your mix could have killed. Then, with the ATGM's position revealed, it gets wiped out before the Abrams comes into view.

On the other hand, if the TacAI is too cautious there will be missed opportunities that the player will grumble about. Thewood is correct that this becomes, theoretically at least, a bigger problem for WeGo. In reality it might not matter since RealTime players have other constraints that can affect their ability to intervene. So it's more of a case by case problem than it is a WeGo vs. RealTime problem.

Now, what is SUPPOSED to happen is if the player gives a Target Command against a specific vehicle, it is supposed to engage it as soon as it can. A Cover Arc, however, is not a direct Command. The TacAI's discrimination is not modified, just constrained to engage only within the arc's area.

So if Bigduke6 had a Target Command that wasn't working for a prolonged time I have to think "as soon as possible" was delayed for some sort of reason. Maybe the weapon wasn't set up or the crew had trouble acquiring the target long enough to fire? Or maybe there is something in the logic that needs a tweak or fix to make it more realistically quicker. I can't say since I didn't see the game play out.

Steve

[JasonC]

On the humvee example, we will use a covered arc. A target within a covered arc that can be killed should be engaged. You don't need to solve the "best time to fire" problem. You just need to put a reliable switch controlling it, in the player's hands.

[Bigduke6]

Well, I had a covered arc but it wasn't doing the trick so I targeted. It was an AT-4 on a roof, set up properly with LOS etc. etc.

What has me scratching my head is that the crew was shy about firing at 600 meters or so, but when the range got good and close and dangerous, then they decide to fire.

As there were some roofs in front of the roof the crew was on - same level - maybe there is something wierd from that, although as noted the LOS line was blue and happy.

I've had pretty good results getting a launch from the ground pretty much on call, target line does what it's supposed to and US vehicle gets slammed at distance. I even had a Sagger launch at 550 meters from open ground at the lead vehicle of 3 Stykers in LOS; what with the flight time you'd think that took some bravery. (Missile missed, if any one is interested.)

Anyway, I thought I would kick this particular rooftop experience in seeing as the thread was discussing ATGM on roofs.

All in all not enough data to prove anything, but maybe this could be some evidence supporting the hypothesis that ATGM on rooftops don't quite behave right. But maybe it was just the dice, that happens sometimes.

[Secondbrooks]

I've had few instances when ATGM-team won't open their fire even if target is clearly visible. Usually seems to happen with reverse slope-thingy (which seems have quite random effect in general... I don't understand it even closely).

[Battlefront.com]

JasonC,

On the humvee example, we will use a covered arc. A target within a covered arc that can be killed should be engaged. You don't need to solve the "best time to fire" problem. You just need to put a reliable switch controlling it, in the player's hands.

From experience, I know for sure that if the TacAI fired at anything it could kill within a Cover Arc we would have a litany of complaints about it. We went through the same sort of discussion in CMBB about various weapons systems for exactly the same reasons.

All in all not enough data to prove anything, but maybe this could be some evidence supporting the hypothesis that ATGM on rooftops don't quite behave right. But maybe it was just the dice, that happens sometimes.

Could be, or it could be that micro changes in the target kept nixing the crew's ability to fire until it got to a cleaner LOS spot. Those wire guided missiles require a certain degree of slop when they first launch so my blind guess at the moment is that something interfered with the aiming process which kept resetting it. Whether this is realistic or not it's not possible to say without looking at it in detail. I'll make sure it's looked at.

Secondbrooks,

I've had few instances when ATGM-team won't open their fire even if target is clearly visible.

There are random factors at work, that's for sure. Also, targeting one of these things isn't as simple as "clearly visible = shoot". The weapon takes some time to get aligned and a target "locked". If the target is moving fast, is periodically disappearing behind something, etc. it can be a lot harder for the team to acquire the target because it essentially retards the aiming process.

Steve

[Pandur]

2. Firing generally reveals position, which usually results in a quick death for the ATGM team

In fact, the AT-3 has a problem in that the missile files so slowly that it is possible for the crew to be killed/suppressed before the missile can strike the intended target! And since it is crew guided, that generally means that if someone so much as shoots at the AT-3 team during missile flight it is likely to miss (it's likely to miss anyway, though, since it is very inaccurate).

why dont let us fire them remote!? or "hull down" like most are intended to use!?

as afar as i know you dont have to bunch around "all" ATGM to get it to fire!?

from here about the sagger;

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/at3sagger.htm

The guidance panel can be located up to 15 meters from the launcher, and can control up to four launchers.

why not let us do that for they ones wich can ofcourse!? ATGMs would not be dead meat "as soon" as they launch.

Picture you wanting to hit an Abrams you know is on the map and having your only ATGM team blow up a Humvee

steve, you as one of the creators of CMx1 give us such an example!?

"Cover Armor" was pretty handy in CMx1 wasnt it

if oyu give control to the player you reduce hassle with tac ai, there is no obvious downside to that.

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[Code13]

I have had a similar prob, only played 1.6, but ATGM team on a roof with clear LOS to an unmoving striker and no shot.

[thewood]

from Pandur:

steve, you as one of the creators of CMx1 give us such an example!?

"Cover Armor" was pretty handy in CMx1 wasnt it

It is near impossible to set up a good armor ambush in WEGO. the "cover armor" target arc was the best feature of CMBB and CMAK over the original CMBO.