Victoria Cross Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Hello, I watched a show on TV last night called the Greatest Ever Machines: Tanks. The most interesting part were the rankings for the top 3 MODERN tanks: 1. Leopard II 2. M1A2 3. Merkeva Does everyone agree with this ranking ? It would be interesting to see the modules in CMSF be able to play each other blue vs. blue: US Marines vs Canadians, i.e. M1A2s and Bradleys vs. Leopard IIs and LAV IIIs. Has anyone suggest an Israeli module ? Seems it would go well with the Middle-Eastern theme and we could play the Merkeva's Food for thought [ April 23, 2007, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: Victoria Cross ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Cross Posted April 23, 2007 Author Share Posted April 23, 2007 Mis-post admin please delete 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Cross Posted April 23, 2007 Author Share Posted April 23, 2007 Mis-post admin please delete 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Does everyone agree with this ranking ? It would be interesting to see the modules in CMSF be able to play each other blue vs. blue: US Marines vs Canadians, i.e. M1A2s and Bradleys vs. Leopard IIs and LAV IIIs.If things go as planned, you will. We'll get Challenger IIs first, though. No Merkava. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Only one of the three has been proven in combat against enemy armor. I love the Leo but the M1 has done it in the field. Merk has field experience as well but not against frontline enemy armor. They might as well put the Leclerc up there, it looks great on paper too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 As a test let's put a 45 ton weight class bridge along their route of march and find out which is the 'Greatest Ever Machine' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): Only one of the three has been proven in combat against enemy armor. I love the Leo but the M1 has done it in the field. Merk has field experience as well but not against frontline enemy armor. They might as well put the Leclerc up there, it looks great on paper too. I don't know that the combat is especially significant. The Leo (until the 2A5) and the M1A2 have the same gun. The armor technology is the same. The differences are in engine type and fire control systems. How many times has an M1 actually been fired at and hit by opposing armor? Seems to me mostly what they've done is pick off tanks using their standoff range which the other tanks could do just as easily. Israelis took out T-72s in the Bekaa Valley fighting with an early version of the Merk. [ April 23, 2007, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: RMC ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Field experience with Leos exists from Bosnia, and soon will be available from Afghanistan, if the Canadians send them there. It will be interesting to see how they do in the threat environment and environmental conditions. Performance in the field against outdated Soviet trash is pretty much irrelevant, unless somebody seriously wants to argue that a Leo II would not be able to dispatch a T-72 in the same manner as the M1 does? All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Cross Posted April 23, 2007 Author Share Posted April 23, 2007 Originally posted by Andreas: Performance in the field against outdated Soviet trash is pretty much irrelevant, unless somebody seriously wants to argue that a Leo II would not be able to dispatch a T-72 in the same manner as the M1 does?With respect to BFC, this underlines the problem with the upcoming balance issues of CMSF... M1A2s versus Russian crap! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 No it doesn't. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Yes it does. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 I guess we have to define our criterion. The M1 has more kills than the Leo or Merk III so there it wins. Newest technology, M1 falls to third since it was the first of the real new generation of tanks. The new ones have lots of new bells and whistles but have not been fundimentally redesigned. I guess we could throw in fuel economy or number of cup holders as well. I will say this for durability, I never saw a Leo throw track and we always trained with them in winter mud. I have seen M1s throw, not a lot but I have seen it happen. Of course I have also seen M60s throw track backing up on a paved road and snap torsion bars while sitting at an op order. I have never been close to a Merk so I can't say anything about them. Also, in my opinion, the Leo II A6 is the coolest looking one of the bunch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Drago Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 I'd throw a couple of late-model T-90's in there for sh*ts and giggles - have a little 'Cold War 2' riff on the situation maybe, Putin's evil successor is all bloated with oil wealth and throws Syria some toys to bloody American noses. *sigh* Won't be able to play with cool Russian stuff until it too is outdated... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Only way to truly find out is if these tanks fight it out with eachother or against a T-80 or T-90. But I say M1A1 as it would have decided advantages to defeat a Leo due to the advanced communications and sat downlinks. We would own the sky so its gonna be a hard road for anything that comes up against us. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 I think number of kills is irrelevant, since it is not a function of tank quality in today's conflicts, but of target availability. And with that most of what people think has been proven in the field is gone. I do think however that battlefield experience is important in terms of performance during MOUT operations, including ability to withstand small arms and RPGs, mortar and rocket hits; durability on mission; impact on the supply chain that has to keep units operational; crew comfort during long missions; other 'soft' stuff like this. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 You've got to define what they're supposed to be 'best' at. Best at 'tip of the spear' tank-on-tank slug-fests? Best to field/operate/transport/maintain in the long term? Best all-around combined arms weapons system? Most generally useful for what a military typically is called on to do? I recall back in the early 80s there was a lobbying effort to crown the submarine the 'queen of the battlefield'. That's definitely a weapons system that does what it was designed to do to perfection - but what relevance does that weapon system's skills have to 90% of the conflicts we'll be expected to face in the foreseeable future? The same question might apply to the 70 ton SuperTank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): Newest technology, M1 falls to third since it was the first of the real new generation of tanks. Leo II preceded the M1 in active service IIRC. It's leapfrogging upgrades. The M1A1 and A2 have the 120mmL/40 gun. The Leo 2A5/6 has the longer 120mmL/55 gun. The M1 has FBCB2 or Blue Force Tracker (depending on unit). Not sure if the Leo has any SA system like those. Don't know what the German answer to the M1 MRE heater was either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Originally posted by RMC: Don't know what the German answer to the M1 MRE heater was either. hehe, good one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Originally posted by RMC: Don't know what the German answer to the M1 MRE heater was either. EPA All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Um, EPA is the MRE. The M1s were outfitted with a powered metal sleeve inside the turret to warm the meal packets. Does the Leo have something like that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_mike_the_wino2 Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Originally posted by Victoria Cross: It would be interesting to see the modules in CMSF be able to play each other blue vs. blue: US Marines vs Canadians,....That's a dream come true...not a blue on blue action. :mad: :mad: Damn frozen commie bastiches. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Cross Posted April 23, 2007 Author Share Posted April 23, 2007 Originally posted by mike_the_wino2: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Victoria Cross: It would be interesting to see the modules in CMSF be able to play each other blue vs. blue: US Marines vs Canadians,....That's a dream come true...not a blue on blue action. :mad: :mad: </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Is an MRE heater like a boiling vessel? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 It's an electrical hot plate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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