It's Official, we have lost the war...

[civdiv]

http://washingtontimes.com/national/inring.htm

Wartime PC danger

E-mails from U.S. military officers in Iraq and Afghanistan have exposed an alarming, politically correct practice that is endangering the lives of troops serving in those conflict zones.

According to the officers, U.S. troops are being forced to carry unloaded weapons on most U.S. bases because commanders are more worried about a "negligent" discharge than the very real likelihood of a terrorist attack by an insider on the base. The rule is all the more disconcerting because these troops are in areas where they receive combat pay.

Defense officials say the fear of "negligent" weapon discharge is due to lack of training and is different from concerns about accidental discharge, which involves a mechanical malfunction that rarely occurs.

"This selection of political correctness and safety concerns over force protection contrasts markedly with combat experience in World War II, Korea or Vietnam, where soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines were required to be armed — with loaded weapons — at all times," one official said.

"This is a gross failure of leadership, and in all likelihood has contributed to the U.S. casualty rate," the official said.

The officer in Iraq said the unloaded-gun rule is a symptom of bigger military leadership problems, especially in the Army.

"Unfortunately, many military leaders are little more than managers, and many of those have consciously chosen to reduce themselves to the level of permanent administrator, because it is safer for their careers than risking real decision-making," he said.

The officer warned that the leadership crisis in the Army is producing a "stilted, uninspired Army."

"Such a sterile, hyper-politicized, ponderous, disconnected Army is no match for an inspired, committed, agile, flexible force, even one smaller and less technologically sophisticated," he said of the Islamic terrorist enemy.

A soldier in Afghanistan said the no-loaded-weapons rule is true for bases there as well, adding that soldiers are required to unload weapons after returning from "Indian country."

"The idea that anyone, anywhere, would carry firearms for serious social interaction, yet do so with them in any condition other than ready to fire at a moment's notice, is so stupid no 'discussion' appears necessary, at least among the sane," the soldier said.

[YankeeDog]

Geez that's boneheaded.

But I don't understand the application of the label "politically correct" to the issue. Stupid, sure. But politically correct? I don't get it.

[Splinty]

Give me a break! Yes, inside the FOBs you must carry your weapon unloaded. You are also required to have your weapon and ammo on your person at all times. It takes me less then 3 seconds to go from green (weapon cleared-no magazine inserted) to red (locked and loaded-weapon on safe). Outside the wire we're red at all times. F!@#$% clueless reporters!

[YankeeDog]

Ah, good point Splinty! Thanks for clarifiying.

From the way the article was written, I had assumed that soldiers were walking around forward bases, with empty M4s, and no ammo at all on their persons. Brought back memories of the US Marines guarding the American Embassy in Lebabon in the Eighties. . .

If they're carrying ammo, and just don't have a mag in the well while in-base, this seems like a perfectly reasonable safety measure to me.

As even a civilian like myself with basic firearms safety knows, carrying a loaded firearm takes constant attention, and is actually mentally fatiguing after a while. I can absolutely understand the reasoning behind clearing the chamber, and taking the mag out of the well while you're eathing lunch, or other activities in-base.

Cheers,

YD

[civdiv]

Personally, they should be locked and loaded in most situations. True, huge numbers of personnel (soldiers mostly) are getting killed and maimed by negligent discharges. But that is more a product of poor discipline than having loaded weapons. You respect a weapon when it is loaded. If you carry it around all day unloaded you lose muzzle awareness as you begin to disrespect the weapon. Most of the people hit by negligent discharges were shot with unloaded weapons. What I mean is, the shooter thought the weapon was unloaded. The worst case I heard of was a soldier whose squad leader asked him to mount a flashlight on his rifle. The soldier did so, and then saw some of his friends walking by and he 'jokingly' pointed the weapon at one of them and pulled the trigger. And shot his buddy in the head, killing him instantly. He thought the weapon was unloaded and he hadn't checked it. If everyone is carrying loaded weapons everyone checks to make sure they are unloaded properly. If noone has loaded weapons people stop checking them.

The PC part is just the risk aversion being shown. Big Army has arrived (actually they got there years ago) and lots of fobettes running around with nothing to do but come up with dumb rules. Let me see, we had the speed trap at Bagram in 2004 when there is only one paved road on the whole base.

I had a buddy of mine on base reac in Iraq last year. One of the posts started taking fire and his squad mounted up and and was hauling ass to the perimeter. Followed by an MP vehicle with flashing lights trying to pull them over for speeding.

Or a medic friend evacing a badly wounded soldier who had been hit in a mortar attack on the base. The patient was almost killed and my buddy almost knocked unconscious when the ambulance hit a speed bump erected just that day.

Or back at Bondsteel in 2002. The guards had to punch your weapon with a punchrod, not ONCE, but TWICE, everytime you came on base!

If you don't trust your troops with loaded weapons that is YOUR leadership problem, not theirs.

Yankee, did we learn nothing in Beruit? Those guys carried unloaded weapons also. It's the erossion of preparedness. Next you will need orders from an officer to 'lock and load'.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by civdiv:

The soldier did so, and then saw some of his friends walking by and he 'jokingly' pointed the weapon at one of them and pulled the trigger. And shot his buddy in the head, killing him instantly. He thought the weapon was unloaded and he hadn't checked it.

Was he prosecuted for manslaughter? He should have been. Treating a weapon as if it is always loaded is the way to go - pointing it, even if empty, is idiotic. Pulling the trigger while doing so defies understanding. Immaturity is rarely punishable by hard time, but in this case, it would be warranted. Or have manpower concerns overcome safety and discipline concerns?

I was just reading tonight that Westmoreland, as Chief of Staff in the post-Vietnam, post-draft era for the US Army, gave permission to troops to grow sideburns. Allowing troops to point weapons at each other seems much more ill-advised.

[JonS]

Originally posted by civdiv:

Next you will need orders from an officer to 'lock and load'.

You don't already :confused:

Load!

Action!

Instant!

Those are orders. Given by an officer, commisioned or otherwise.

Incidentally, carrying a loaded weapon around all the time isn't all that mentally fatiguing, after a certain - short - period of adjuctment. You just get in the habit of checking the safety regularly (which is as simple as a master-hand wobble to make sure your thumb touches what you expect it to), and carrying out the unload drills properly.

Still, every army has it's share of muttons, so UDs are going to happen. But I agree it is a training & leadership issue.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by civdiv:

[sNIP]

Yankee, did we learn nothing in Beruit? Those guys carried unloaded weapons also. It's the erossion of preparedness. Next you will need orders from an officer to 'lock and load'.

Er. . . correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Beirut Embassy incident weren't the Marines *on duty at the guardposts* carrying unloaded weapons, due to political concerns about causing an 'incident'?

IMHO, that's obviously boneheaded. But this seems different issue to me. . . . I can appreciate that many US bases in Iraq are not all that safe, but isn't the danger primarily rocket and mortar attacks? And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the GIs pulling guard duty at bases still "locked and loaded"?

How likely is it that an "off duty" (i.e., not assigned to guard/security duty) soldier is going to need to take a snap shot with his firearm at some threat? IOW, how much of a disadvantage is it *when on base* to need to take the 3 seconds to load and charge your weapon, in the event of an insurgent popping up infront of you, on base?

I'm skeptical, but more than happy to be proven wrong. . .

Cheers,

YD

[unsobill]

-only if happytriger grunts would control themselfs and wont go postal killing everything in sight this would never happen. I know, military is highly disciplined structure, but like usual army practice, everyone have to pay for few bad apples that snapped mistakes - so there u go.

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by Splinty:

Give me a break! Yes, inside the FOBs you must carry your weapon unloaded. You are also required to have your weapon and ammo on your person at all times. It takes me less then 3 seconds to go from green (weapon cleared-no magazine inserted) to red (locked and loaded-weapon on safe). Outside the wire we're red at all times. F!@#$% clueless reporters!

Right on splinty. It's common freakin sense that if you are inside a base, with a guard perimeter around you, that you shouldn't be locked and loaded, BUT with a clip of ammo on your person. That's how we did it in the 82nd. And this sure as hell has nothing to do with PC concerns. Sounds like some reporter couldn't find a good story.

[Bruce70]

I have to agree with the policy of only having the weapon loaded when necessary, but nevertheless treating it as though it is always loaded. I grew up with firearms and that is what we were always told.

If I had pointed a weapon at someone my dad would have kicked my ass even if it wasn't loaded. If I had pulled the trigger I doubt I would have lived to tell the tale (again even if it wasn't loaded). The value of this lesson was hammered home to me one day when I was messing around with a shotgun to impress my friends and shot a hole in the floor. I didn't get in much trouble because I at least had the good sense not to point it at someone. My brother OTOH did not get off so lightly for leaving it loaded.

I know that hunting is a bit different to being hunted, but I would hope that the soldier who shot his friend would have been severely disciplined even if it turned out that the weapon wasn't loaded.

[Tarquelne]

Stupid, sure. But politically correct? I don't get it.

Not that uncommon a usage: Somehow, someway, "liberals" are to blame.

In this case through treasonous feel-good appeasement-seeking policies toward islamofascists. .. At least that's what I think the unspoken assumption is.

Liberals! They're corrupting our precious bodily fluids, you know.

[Sixxkiller]

You dont need a loaded weapon when in a safe area. Only thing is that 3 seconds you take to load up, you may miss your chance at getting back at that mean Drill Sgt who gave you hell in basic!!!!

j/k ofcourse

[MikeyD]

"If noone has loaded weapons people stop checking them."

That lines reminds me of that Hollywood actor who thought he had an unloaded gun and accidentally blew out his own brains while horsing around.

This report doesn't bother me IF its being reasonably enforced. Unloaded guns at checkpoints would be absurd. Separating guns from ammo would be absurd. Its easy enough for accidental deaths to outpace combat related deaths on post. Imagine, if every unit had just one guy shot in the ass by his buddy during deployment the casualty numbers would add up pretty darned quick. Lets remember all those Bagdhad patrol photos that clearly show fingers deliberatley OFF the trigger.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

"If noone has loaded weapons people stop checking them."

That lines reminds me of that Hollywood actor who thought he had an unloaded gun and accidentally blew out his own brains while horsing around.

You may be thinking of Jon-Eric Hexum, but he didn't think he had an unloaded gun. He knew he had a gun loaded with blanks, but apparently didn't realize they can be lethal.

Or was it Brandon Lee?

[ May 15, 2007, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[RMC]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Was he prosecuted for manslaughter? He should have been. Treating a weapon as if it is always loaded is the way to go - pointing it, even if empty, is idiotic. Pulling the trigger while doing so defies understanding. Immaturity is rarely punishable by hard time, but in this case, it would be warranted.

Heh. I did that once when I was a 4th classman. I was walking down to guard duty. I was carrying my unloaded, firing pin-free M14 and when passing by Jackson arch, I spied Kovak, that POS football player standing there reading the menu. I pointed my M14 at him and squeezed the trigger a couple of times.

A cadet captain spotted me and jacked me up. Placed me on report. I got what we call a "special." I was summoned to see the deputy commandant. I reported and answered the special with "correct." Wilcockson asked me if I was "looking down the sights of the weapon." I said, "No, sir. It was a casual, off the hip gesture." He gave me 5 demerits and told me there'd be hell to pay if I ever did it again.

So, no hard time for me.

That cadet captain was pissed that I didn't get any penalty tours out of the deal.