Small Arms?

[Rick]

Wow,guys you're giving more info than I expected.

The take on the M249 is what I exected, but wouldn't have felt confident in my idea without someone who has real knowledge of the systems confirming.

So, does anyone have any opinions on the long range evolution of small arms? What kind of weapons would be in a Combat Mission set say 50 years into the future?

[akd]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

Steve,

Any update of what of the current Russian and Chinese stuff has been turning up in Syria.

I don't expect the likes of SU-27's, but given what we are seeing in Iraq and the question of infiltration, I would have thought anyone wanting to sell some of the nastier anti-personnel stuff and small arms would be in there hopeful of finding eager buyers.

Peter.

Well, the source may have an agenda, but...

Dr. Walid Phares gave the following testimony before the U.S. Senate on the issue of Russia's arming of longtime ally Syria. We reproduce it here in full. -- The Editors.

I am pleased to participate in this timely hearing on the subject of Russian involvement with Syria. I shall focus my remarks upon the impact of Russian-Syrian relations on Lebanon. I am a professor of international relations, an expert on terrorism and am originally from Lebanon. I am the Secretary-General of the World Lebanese Cultural Union, and in that capacity I have just been in New York where I met seven ambassadors to the UN Security Council (Algeria, Argentina, Brazil, France, Greece, Russia, US) and the Deputy Secretary General for Middle Eastern affairs. While I am not an international lawyer, I shall draw your attention to international legal standards which I sincerely believe Russia is not meeting.

As you know, the present turmoil in Lebanon stems from the assassination of the former prime minister, Rafiq Hariri, on February 14, 2005. Mr Hariri’s murder was, however, not a bolt from the blue. Rather, his brutal removal from the political scene followed months of threats by Syria and its proxies against Lebanese who have sought the end of the Syrian occupation of Lebanon in compliance with UN Security Council Resolution 1559 of September 2, 2004 (UNSCR 1559/2004). The US Congress was ahead of the international community in demanding such a withdrawal through the Syria Accountability and Lebanese Sovereignty Restoration Act of 2003.

Throughout the increasing tensions in Lebanon, Russia has stood firmly with its traditional ally in Damascus. It is clear to me that Russian influence over Syria will play a significant role in the fortunes of democracy in Lebanon and the Middle East region.

By supplying arms and diplomatic support, Russia sustains the Syrian government and the continued Syrian presence in Lebanon which is in violation of UNSCR 1559/2004. Russian arms are used to violate human rights in both Syria and Lebanon. These same Russian arms are supplied to terrorists and insurgents who attack US forces and Iraqi civilians in Iraq and who conduct terrorist operations against Israeli civilians.

As you know, the Soviet Union had a long history of support, economic, financial and military, for Syria and for Syrian-aligned terrorist groups. Russia has continued the military relationship since the collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of 1991, albeit on a reduced scale.

Syria depends on Russia for the supply, maintenance and spare parts for all of its major weapons systems. Although there is some indigenous manufacture of armaments, this is neither of the scale nor quality that would allow Syria to claim to have an independent arms industry.

Russian military supplies are the foundation upon which the Syrian state is built. As you know, Syria is the last remaining Ba’athist dictatorship and its sole means of influence is armed force and intimidation.

Russia, and its predecessor the Soviet Union, have supplied Syria with the following armaments that play a role in Syrian power projection: surface to air missiles, surface to surface missiles, tanks and armored personnel carriers, small arms.

The surface to air missiles allow Syria to attempt to compensate for the weakness of its air force and to provide an air defense umbrella stretching beyond Syria’s borders.

The surface to surface missiles allow Syria to threaten its neighbors’ cities, as Iraq’s long range missiles did under Saddam Hussein’s regime. In addition, the suspicion that Syria has active chemical and biological weapons programs raises the concern that such missiles may be armed with non-conventional warheads.

The tanks and armored personnel carriers, along with the small arms, are the standard weapons of Ba’athist repression at both home and abroad. Small arms, in particular, have ended up in the hands of the various Syrian-aligned terrorist groups that have plagued the Middle East. For example, the large stock of arms made available to Hizbullah by Syria and Iran contains significant quantities of Russian made weapons and weapons of Russian origin made under license abroad. The same applies to the arms that Syria has passed on to other Syrian-aligned militias and terrorist groups in Lebanon such as the Syrian Ba’ath Party, the Syrian National-Social Party and the Palestinian Saika units.

Russia appears to place no conditions on the use of arms that it supplies to foreign governments, unlike the US, and appears to show no interest in the fact that its weapons have become the killing instruments of choice of terrorists and insurgents around the world. Indeed, according to a 2003 report by Amnesty International and Oxfam International, Kalashnikovs are “up to 80 per cent” of the world’s assault rifles.(1)

The indirect provision of arms to terrorists by Russia is particularly worrying as it violates the spirit and letter of the OSCE Charter on Preventing and Combating Terrorism,(2) to which Russia is a signatory and which this commission is charged with overseeing the implementation of. The OSCE Charter on terrorism states clearly at paragraph 8 that “every State is obliged to refrain from harbouring terrorists, organizing, instigating, providing active or passive support or assistance to, or otherwise sponsoring terrorist acts in another State, or acquiescing in organized activities within its territory directed towards the commission of such acts” (emphasis added). Indeed, paragraph 20 of the same document speaks of “the need to address conditions that may foster and sustain terrorism, in particular by fully respecting democracy and the rule of law, by allowing all citizens to participate fully in political life”—Russia, by facilitating the continued Syrian occupation of Lebanon, is stifling democracy, the rule of law and participation in political life.

Moreover, Russian arms sales to Syria appear to contravene, in both spirit and letter, the provisions of the OSCE Document on Small Arms and Light Weapons, in particular nine of the eleven grounds listed for a state not to grant and arms export license under the proposed common export criteria.(3)

In addition, there is a hidden dimension to the Russian-Syrian relationship that receives insufficient attention—intelligence cooperation. Syrian intelligence officers have often been trained in Russia and the two countries appear to maintain a close intelligence relationship. A key aspect of the Syrian occupation of Lebanese is the widespread presence of Syrian intelligence officers, men who conduct their own operations while simultaneously controlling the Lebanese security services.

While it has been widely reported that Russia called on March 3, 2005 for Syria to withdraw from Lebanon, it is my belief that Russia’s stance remains broadly supportive of Damascus. Remember that Russia abstained during the passage of UNSCR 1559/2004. Indeed, the Russian UN delegation stated after the adoption of UNSCR 1559/2004 that it had “tabled amendments, the purpose of which was [sic] to move the draft towards the context of a Middle East settlement as a whole and to prevent the document from being one-sided and from concentrating solely on domestic Lebanese affairs”, put otherwise, Russia sought to water down UNSCR 1559/2004 and to weaken the clear implication of the resolution that Syria is occupying Lebanon in defiance of the will of its people and international opinion.

Indeed, Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said on March 4, 2005 after meeting with Walid Muallem, the Syrian first deputy foreign minister, said that Russia was “satisfied that the Syrian side, with due regard to all the circumstances and UNSCR 1559, is planning to carry out steps that we understand will soon be announced and which will go in the mainstream of the Taif Agreements and with respect for UNSCR 1559.” Lavrov also criticized “the unhealthy atmosphere which being whipped up around Syria.”(4) Yet, just yesterday, the Russian ambassador to the UN told me that his country would put pressure on Syria to quit Lebanon and to comply with UNSCR 1559/2004.

These are not encouraging remarks from the foreign minister of the country that arms and so sustains the Syrian regime. Indeed, the entire Russian policy towards Syria is particularly troubling given Russia’s own problem with terrorism. The Russian people have suffered grievously from terrorism, yet their government seems to be unable to reach the same conclusion as the US, that terrorism is never acceptable.

Members of the United States Helsinki Commission, there will be no stability and democracy in Lebanon, nor peace in the Middle East, unless and until Russia stops supporting the Syrian regime. We all know that ending the supply of arms, curbing diplomatic support and intelligence cooperation will not on its own end the Syrian occupation of Lebanon nor the flow of arms to terrorists. We all know, however, that no progress can be made on any of these issues while that Russian support for Syria, support in contradiction with OSCE principles and agreements, continues unabated.

ENDNOTES:

(1) Amnesty International and Oxfam International, Shattered Lives: the case for tough international arms control, London 2003, page 19, “The Kalashnikov is the godfather of assault rifles. Total production is estimated to be between 70 and 100 million, comprising up to 80 per cent of the total number of assault rifles in the world.” For comparison, M-16 production was 7 million. Available at http://www.controlarms.org/documents/arms_report_full.pdf.

(2) Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, Ministerial Council Annex 1, "OSCE CHARTER ON PREVENTING AND COMBATING TERRORISM", December 7, 2002, Porto, available at http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2002/12/1488_en.pdf.

(3) Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, FORUM FOR SECURITY CO-OPERATION," OSCE DOCUMENT ON SMALL ARMS AND LIGHT WEAPONS", Vienna, November 24, 2000, available at http://www.osce.org/docs/english/fsc/2000/decisions/fscew231.htm. SECTION III: (A) 2. states in part ( that "Each participating State will avoid issuing licences for exports where it deems that there is a clear risk that the small arms in question might: ...(i) Be used for the violation or suppression of human rights and fundamental freedoms; (ii) Threaten the national security of other States; (iii) Be diverted to territories whose external relations are the internationally acknowledged responsibility of another State; (iv) Contravene its international commitments, in particular in relation to sanctions adopted by the Security Council of the United Nations, decisions taken by the OSCE, agreements on non-proliferation, small arms, or other arms control and disarmament agreements; (v) Prolong or aggravate an existing armed conflict, taking into account the legitimate requirement for self-defence, or threaten compliance with international law governing the conduct of armed conflict; (vi) Endanger peace, create an excessive and destabilizing accumulation of small arms, or otherwise contribute to regional instability; (vii) Be either re-sold (or otherwise diverted) within the recipient country or re-exported for purposes contrary to the aims of this document; (viii) Be used for the purpose of repression; (ix) Support or encourage terrorism; (x) Facilitate organized crime; (xi) Be used other than for the legitimate defence and security needs of the recipient country." Russia appears to fail to observe all but stipulations (iii) and (iv).

(4) MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION, INFORMATION AND PRESS DEPARTMENT, "Transcript of Remarks and Replies to Media Questions by Russian Minister of Foreign Affairs Sergey Lavrov at Press Conference Following Talks with First Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Syria Walid Muallem, Moscow, March 4, 2005", available HERE.

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Dr. Walid Phares is a Professor of Middle East Studies and Senior Fellow with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

Of a more immediate nature:

Posted 09/29/05 11:44 Print-friendly version

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Syrian Army Chief Mulls Russian Arms Purchases

By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, MOSCOW

The Syrian army’s chief-of-staff General Ali Habib left Russia on Sept. 29 after a four-day visit aimed at upgrading his country’s weapons arsenal and strengthening defense cooperation between Moscow and Damascus.

Habib met Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov on Wednesday to discuss “maintenance and modernization of Syrian military equipment by Russian experts, the training of Syrian military in Russian military academies and potential purchases of Russian weapons,” a Russian defense ministry statement said.

The Syrian general agreed to buy ammunition and increase the number of Syrian servicemen studying in Russia from 30 to more than 50, Interfax news agency quoted an unnamed Russian defense ministry official as saying.

The Syrian general on Tuesday also visited a weapons factory specializing in high-precision anti-tank rockets in Tula region south of Moscow on Tuesday.

The factory is Russia’s seventh largest arms exporter and produces small arms, “active armored” systems and Kornet-E anti-tank missiles.

Habib, who met his Russian counterpart Yury Baluyevsky on Tuesday, was also scheduled to meet representatives of Rosoboronexport, the official Russian body charged with arms exports.

Russia, one of Syria’s main arms suppliers, sold short-range surface to air missiles to Damacus earlier this year, unleashing protests from Israel.

[Battlefront.com]

Pretty much all mid range programs have been put on hold because their funds have been sucked up to fund current operations. XM-29 initially was questioned because XM-8 was supposedly going to get the contract, now that a very expensive incremental upgrade in infantry capabilities is seen as wasteful the XM-8 is dead for good. The military is still very much looking for a significant improvement over its current inventory of small arms weapons. By the time they can afford to make the transition far better options than the XM-8 will be practical.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

The vast majority of armaments in Syria today are of Soviet/Russian orgin. It will likely continue to be that way for some time. However, Syria has been buying "Russian knockoffs", mostly small arms, from China due to the lower per unit cost. From a game standpoint there is no real difference so we are not planning on making any distinction between the small percentage of near identical weapons from China vs. the overwhelming majority from Soviet/Russian origins. If we find a significantly different system, like an AT weapon or something, then we'll of course include it. Understand, though, that syria isn't buying much new stuff these days. It simply can't afford to. At least not on a grand scale.

Steve

[akd]

But back to Stryker unit small arms:

M4s w/Eotech sights:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/jizzmonkey/aai.sized.jpg

The old M14/M21 soldiers on:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/jizzmonkey/aaj.sized.jpg

M4 w/203 and .50 cal for when 7.62 just isn't enough:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/jizzmonkey/abb.sized.jpg

Old-school shotgun and an M14 with an Eotech sight (talk about an intergenerational relationship):

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/jizzmonkey/abj.sized.jpg

A Stryker sniper (really) with a shotgun:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/jizzmonkey/aca.jpg

more M4s w/203s:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/jizzmonkey/aaa.sized.jpg

Stryker guys with M4s in many flavors:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/2nd_Infantry_Division-Stryker_Platoon/aac.sized.jpg

M249 (Para?) with Elcan sight (M145):

http://www.defenselink.mil/transformation/images/photos/2005-05/photoessays/tp20050512b5.jpg

M249 Para with Elcan:

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/dec2003/essays/pi123103a3.jpg

M-240G (or a modified B?):

http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/editart/072204front13.jpg

Does a sledgehammer count as a small arm?

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/dec2003/essays/pi123103a2.jpg

hey look, the baddies are equipped with only the latest technology:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/124texcavtroop/aaf.jpg

[ November 08, 2005, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: akd ]

[hellfish]

"Jizzmonkey" also has a lot of neat videos - some of them from cameras mounted on the gun tree of Strykers in combat. I can give a link if anyone needs it.

[akd]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

"Jizzmonkey" also has a lot of neat videos - some of them from cameras mounted on the gun tree of Strykers in combat. I can give a link if anyone needs it.

Just not the one with the head.

[hellfish]

Of course.

[Battlefront.com]

I was surprised to see the dozen or so head shots. Surprised in the sense that there isn't a lot more of that up there considering.

Steve

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

"Jizzmonkey" also has a lot of neat videos - some of them from cameras mounted on the gun tree of Strykers in combat. I can give a link if anyone needs it.

can you post the link

thanks

-tom w

[hellfish]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LZFEMFRO

It's a big, fairly hi-res video and Megaupload is not exactly blazing fast, but I think it's worth the wait. At about 9 minutes into it, you see an RPG fly past the camera. You also see the effect of TOWs fired on buildings at close range.

I don't see any insurgents in the vids, nor is there any gore, AFAICS.

[aka_tom_w]

yup its big

thanks!

downloading now

est time ~ 2 hrs ++

oh well

-tom w

[Mord]

Holy crap those weapons are wild looking...LOL we are stepping into Star Wars territory! Anybody else struck by how futuristic they look?

Mord.

[akd]

M110 is still going forward:

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=792

http://knightarmco.com/sass.pdf

[ November 09, 2005, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: akd ]

[Battlefront.com]

Yaknow... from a game research and design standpoint I wish the US Army would go back to its lethargic ways of taking 10 years between the time they put out a request and the time they get the first prototype, then taking another 2-3 years go get it into the hands of more than a few soldiers. All this fast track, spiral development stuff is almost too fast to keep up with!

Steve

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Mord:

Holy crap those weapons are wild looking...LOL we are stepping into Star Wars territory! Anybody else struck by how futuristic they look?

Whaddaya mean? Oh, I guess there's some similarity to something like these:

However, THIS is what I'd like to use:

and the pistol ain't bad, either...

[Andreas]

Ugh - 80s hair.

Shudder.

[Sergei]

Hey, she's an alien, what is 80's monstrosities to you is classical to them.

[akd]

Back to the M110, there is a must-read thread at AR15.com tracking the progress of the project with many detailed posts by a Knights Arms rep (well, more than just rep, to say the least), and some delightful insight into government procurement BS, including some colorful posts from said rep.

Anyways, here is the KAC guy's description of their entry (before award of the contract):

That is correct. Our SR-XM110 is a Mk 11 Mod 0 with:

LOP adjustable buttstock that starts with an M16A1 length in its shortest position.

Flash Suppressor.

Mk 11 type Sound Suppressor modified to interface with FS (longer than a std. Mk11 can).

URX (upper receiver extending) free-float rail forend. (see pic) The timing and rigidity of the top rail allows you to "bridge" the area of the barrel nut with your scope mounts if necessary.

Flip-up front sight is actually part of the top rail directly behind the gas block.

Ambo Safety/Selector.

Leupold 3.5-10x with 1/2 MOA Elevation & windage clicks.

New scope mount with wing nuts for removal without tools. This feature is still in flux. The mounts we submitted have our standard 1/2" hex nuts that are normally torqued to 65 in. lbs. We were allowed to include the T-handle wrench from the M24 SWS kit to achieve this, as the Solicitation indicated that this was OK. However, there is a second open-end wrench (again, just like in the M24 kit), and then a third "key-ring size" 1/2" nut turner in the Mk11 Cleaning Kit that was also included with the SASS kit.

On the buttstock, we took a cautious approach on giving it more than the "required" capabilities because of the risk that one or more of any additional (i.e., desirable) features would fail when the Army does their drop testing. Consider that the rifle is heavy, and that one "drop" orientation is straight on to the BS. This is an example of an area where the User's who draft these requirements need to be careful not to "over-spec." or, if there is such an over-riding need for several adjustable features, then to exclude them from passing the drop tests.

The other acceptable approach would be to keep it baseline simple. By that I mean a a basic "fixed" BS. We re-build US Military Mk 11's & Army Special Lightweight Matches all the time. Many are returned with several User applied modification to the BS area. Such as slices of plywood taped to the buttplate to add length to the BS. Pieces of thin foam packaging material glued or taped to the comb of the stock for stock-weld purposes. Even had a few returned with an "eye bolt" bolted through the small of the stock under the buffer tube for a "single point" sling attachment point.

So manybe just asking for something that is easily modifiable by the individual is a better way to go, than trying to buy something "so complete" that the individual Soldier (heaven forbid) must go out and obtain his own tape, foam, etc., to make the system better fit him. IMHO, you can go too far trying to force a 100% complete solution.

When I was doing ColdWx Ops, we encouraged individual Marines to put together their own "wear on the body" survival kits. We showed them the basics and where to purchase the parts and pieces. When certain parts of the chain of command learned of this, they were shocked and dismayed that indivual Marines had to go out (heaven forbid) and buy their own stuff. So the "system" produced an Issue Cold Wx Survival Kit. These were issued when units were assigned to us, and then recovered when we returned months later. As such, indivuals were not allowed to open them up when they might need a match, a length of para cord, or whatever. Worse yet, it was in a belt pouch conected to your web-gear. Well, if you ever found yourself in a "survival situation" and had all your web gear, you were actually on a camping trip--not a survival event. The whole purpose of the build your own kit was that you carried its components in you pockets so you would never be without it.

I also remember when you had to make your own gillie suit...

Sorry to divert from a gun topic, but hopefully you get my meaning.

The other new feature in the scope mount is there is a "draft" built into it so you can always dial to 1,000 meters after first zeroing for 100 and calibrating the elevation dial (this is not always possible if your front and rear rings are the same heigth). And I guess the new TMR illuminated reticle is a difference between the SASS SR-XM110 and the Mk 11's standard scope as well.

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ColdBlue sends...

Thread here:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=228443&page=1