Paper Tiger Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 It 's obvious that CMSF has primarily been designed to be played as the US against the Syrian AI. To give this hypothetical conflict some background, the game also has a storyline that has justified the designers desicion to omit a couple of important things in the game. The first, and definitely the most justifiable, is the lack of Syrian air power. The second is the AI's inability to use artillery in the game. This is also justifiable for a number of reasons. First, with regards to Syrian air power, I am in complete agreement with the developers when they say that the Syrian airforce would be eliminated on Day 1 of any conflict with the US. Therefore, implementing Red air power in any meaningful way in the game would be unrealistic and therefore a waste of valuable development time. Fair enough. I know that I'm in a very small minority of players who like to play the game as the Syrians and accordingly, I'll have to wait a long time for such 'fantasy' elements to be added to the game. In the meantime, I have slug88's red airpower mod to keep me happy until that happy day arrives. With regards to the second, I suspect that the US would also work very hard to eliminate most of the Syrian artillery assets before the troops went in so that the worst they'd have to face would be mortars. The rarity values of Syrian artillery in the scenario editor tend to bear this viewpoint out. Therefore, rightly expecting that most people will want to play as the US side, almost no attention has been given to developing the AI's ability to use it effectively in the game. Playing as the US side, the player has an impressive array of air and artillery assets at his beck and call and in my opinion, their use in the game has been superbly implemented. Since it is realistic to assume that the Syrian mechanised forces would cease to exist as credible fighting formations in the face of US air power, the game's real emphasis is on MOUT operations and in the course of these it is unlikely that the US player would face a serious organised artillery barrage. Therefore I can understand the design decision to keep the AI use of artillery fairly simple. For the last six months or so, I have played this game almost exclusively as the Syrian player and so these shortcomings are very apparent to me. And since the game's main focus is US v Syria, and it is played mostly by Americans, it's obvious why the developers feel that it would be a waste of valuable development time implementing these 'redundant' or fantasy elements into the game. However, judging by the scenarios being generated by members of the community, it's clear that there are plenty of people who are looking for a more challenging US v Syria experience than is realistic. People want to play more conventional type military operations against the Syrians and an important part of these operations is the use of artillery. But at present, the game can't do it effectively because the AI is incapable of using it's artillery beyond 'dumping' it all in the first 3-5 minutes of the mission of the game. I think most people would agree that it feels very unfair when the scenario designer targets the players set up areas with the AI's artillery. But if you don't do that, the AI artillery is almost ineffective. In my creations, I have used it to deny important terrain to the human player and to channel his advance but, after 5 minutes, the artillery is dead for the remainder of the mission and the human player is free to conduct his operations with 100% confidence that he will not be endangered by AI artillery again. I have posted about this topic before but apart from a reply from one of the beta testers who said that he was raising this issue with the developers, I have heard nothing about this. That was back in January and two patches ago. Yet still the AI artillery system is appalling. It doesn't even work in the way the manual and the scenario editor suggests it should, so when are we going to see some improvements in this extremely important aspect of the game? With the rest of the game working really well now, this should really be a very high priority for fixing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Wenman Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 PT thats a well stated case. In the short term I'd be happy with the AI arty being linked to a target area and time window. (In otherwords utilising the existing editor functions.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Originally posted by Paper Tiger: Since it is realistic to assume that the Syrian mechanised forces would cease to exist as credible fighting formations in the face of US air power, the game's real emphasis is on MOUT operations...You make it sound like we should be glad that BFC included Syrian armor at all... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambronne Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Well,the absence of the AI artillery and CAS is a big disappointment for me,as much as the lack of the on-map mortars.I did wrong by buying the game and now I regret it! Sorry guys,but I wished you weren't so lazy and money addicted.And I'm saying this with sadness,not anger... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Originally posted by Cambronne: Well,the absence of the AI artillery and CAS is a big disappointment for me,as much as the lack of the on-map mortars.I did wrong by buying the game and now I regret it! Sorry guys,but I wished you weren't so lazy and money addicted.And I'm saying this with sadness,not anger... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field Marshal Blücher Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 I think that the single most important thing for the next patch (probably after the Marines module) would be a major artillery upgrade. One thing would be the inclusion in the mission editor of being able to choose the timing as well as the location of the AI artillery strikes. The second thing, also of vital importance to me (and others, I believe) is the inclusion of artillery-fired smoke rounds. This is the one aspect of the game which I still consider broken; BFC has done a good job of fixing most of the other problems. -FMB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Originally posted by Field Marshal Blücher: I think that the single most important thing for the next patch (probably after the Marines module) would be a major artillery upgrade. One thing would be the inclusion in the mission editor of being able to choose the timing as well as the location of the AI artillery strikes. The second thing, also of vital importance to me (and others, I believe) is the inclusion of artillery-fired smoke rounds. This is the one aspect of the game which I still consider broken; BFC has done a good job of fixing most of the other problems. -FMB I have to agree. Being a former mortar maggot, I just love to call in indirect, and would like to see it expanded. With the new dynamic lighting, I would also like to see illumination rounds someday. A man can wish, can't he? In my experience, AI arty is only good for opening barrages and denying enemy terrain in the first 5 minutes of the game ATM (a good capability, do not get me wrong). On map mortars are not a big deal for me, although it will be cool when they get them in. ETA: Also, being able to specify in the editor, the ammo count and types available for the indirect fire systems. ETA II: Registered points would be cool too. I kinda miss those from CMx1. [ May 03, 2008, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Normal Dude ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 As far as I remember, the CMx1 artillery AI was pretty well implemented. So there must be some re-usable code lying around somewhere. It would certainly make a lot of scenarios more difficult, if only by adding some harassing mortar fire. Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Paper Tiger is 100% right. Artillery in CMx1 had AI-control, target reference points, preplanned barrages that could be timed to come in half way through a scenario, etc., etc. CMx2 falls very short of this at the moment and will always feel like an unfinished product until these things are got working. BFC need to seriously consider doing this BEFORE the Marines module if you ask me, as we have waited long enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field Marshal Blücher Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Originally posted by Cpl Steiner: BFC need to seriously consider doing this BEFORE the Marines module if you ask me, as we have waited long enough. I agree, but it's probably more efficient if they concentrate on one update at a time. -FMB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Originally posted by Cpl Steiner: Artillery in CMx1 had...preplanned barrages that could be timed to come in half way through a scenario...I don't think CMx1 has this feature, does it? If so, please tell me how to do it, because I've been missing the boat for the last six years! AI arty in CMx1 has certainly stung me a couple of times. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted May 4, 2008 Author Share Posted May 4, 2008 76mm quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Paper Tiger: Since it is realistic to assume that the Syrian mechanised forces would cease to exist as credible fighting formations in the face of US air power, the game's real emphasis is on MOUT operations... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You make it sound like we should be glad that BFC included Syrian armor at all... actually, I remember reading a post of Steve's earlier this year where he pretty much said that. As a Red player, I am immensely grateful that they didn't decide to make the game THAT realistic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted May 4, 2008 Share Posted May 4, 2008 Originally posted by 76mm: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cpl Steiner: Artillery in CMx1 had...preplanned barrages that could be timed to come in half way through a scenario...I don't think CMx1 has this feature, does it? If so, please tell me how to do it, because I've been missing the boat for the last six years!</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted May 4, 2008 Author Share Posted May 4, 2008 Well, after reading the blog, I'm REALLY hoping that this will be one of the surprises. It would explain why there has been no official response to this question. This feature alone would make the module worth buying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted May 4, 2008 Share Posted May 4, 2008 Originally posted by Cpl Steiner: Add Time Shortkey: Q (for Artillery spotters only) Adds a delay to a prep-bombardment in increments of 1 minute. Only available during the first order phase of a battle. (CM:AK Manual page 80). It was introduced in CM:BB and carried over into CM:AK. [/QB]Doh, all this time playing CMBB and I've always thought that pre-planned barrages had to arrive on the first turn... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field Marshal Blücher Posted May 4, 2008 Share Posted May 4, 2008 Originally posted by Paper Tiger: Well, after reading the blog, I'm REALLY hoping that this will be one of the surprises. It would explain why there has been no official response to this question. This feature alone would make the module worth buying. I doubt any artillery upgrade would be part of the module. Steve has said that if there's any kind of core engine improvement, that it would be available to everyone. Nonetheless, I can hope that some such fix will be released soon. -FMB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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