CM Jungle.

[Peter Cairns]

Given the scale and nature of CMx2 and the fact that Jungle games in general seem very difficult to do, is a Jungle version of CM actually likely to be any good possible let alone.

BF never did do the pacific and it's always (to me anyway) never seemed that enthusiastic about Vietnam.

Could it be that the nature of very dense vegitation, both trees and ground cover, make it impractical or just repetative and hard to follow.

Peter.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

Given the scale and nature of CMx2 and the fact that Jungle games in general seem very difficult to do, is a Jungle version of CM actually likely to be any good possible let alone.

BF never did do the pacific and it's always (to me anyway) never seemed that enthusiastic about Vietnam.

Much of the major fighting in Vietnam was done in conditions other than jungle though, from the first battles in the Ia Drang Valley in 1965 (which had decidedly temperate terrain) to the street fighting in Hue or Saigon in 1968...

For that matter, much if not most of the major fighting in the Pacific was done in terrain other than jungle, too. Probably for the very reason that game designers don't like it...too hard to fight in. I think one could easily avoid jungle terrain in a game devoted to Vietnam, especially with the limited focus approach of CMX2. A module based on the Ia Drang or Hue, for example, or the later US Pacific battles such as Tarawa or Iwo Jima are very possible within that type of focus, and avoid jungle altogether.

Jungle terrain is no reason for them to avoid those topics, per se.

Then again, if the question is really "do we want jungle terrain" I'd have to respond the same way I would to people clamoring for Omaha Beach scenarios. Ummm....with so many topics to choose from - why pick one guaranteed to frustrate?

[Moronic Max]

An alternative title for CM: Jungle would be CM: Absurd Number of Polys Required by Terrain Kill Frame Rate

Which isn't a problem if they're going the Crysis/Far Cry route and making 'omfg kewl jungles that you have to upgrade your video card to see as anything other than a slide show' the focus of a title.

[Imperial Grunt]

With all that said, I would love to see a PTO CM game and a CM:SF game set in South America.

Some jungle terrain would be a must for those in my opinon.

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, intense tree cover and broken terrain underneath are really tough to do. Not just from a poly standpoint, but also from a "where the Hell are my guys" and "why can't they shoot at something 5m away". We didn't have to worry about this too much in CMx1 because terrain was abstracted enough. We are going to have to deal with this situation when we get to do something like the Bulge. Not as bad as jungle, I would guess, but basically the same sorts of problems exist for both.

Steve

[Peter Cairns]

Steve,

As a start I think that the new icon system for identifing troops will be a big help.

However, given that CMx2 tracks actual line of sight and fire rather than abstracts it, when in a way treating jungle cover like a kind of "jello" for fire and "Fog" for fighting, with a "density" might be easier on the CPU, I can see that you will have your work cut out.

I agree that by it's nature it's been avoided as much in real warfare as games, and certainly there were those on the US side in Vietnam, like Vann who argued that if the VC want it let them keep it as it's killing more of us and them than we are of each other.

You can have a good Vietnam or PTO game with it at the margins, but you still have to make it work.

Peter.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Yeah, intense tree cover and broken terrain underneath are really tough to do. Not just from a poly standpoint, but also from a "where the Hell are my guys" and "why can't they shoot at something 5m away". We didn't have to worry about this too much in CMx1 because terrain was abstracted enough. We are going to have to deal with this situation when we get to do something like the Bulge. Not as bad as jungle, I would guess, but basically the same sorts of problems exist for both.

Steve

Quite. One thing CMx1 absolutely did not handle well was forest fighting, such as the Hürtgen. Or at least, I never figured out how to make it handle that well. If you could design sumfink that handles Viet Nam, it should be an interesting game.

All the best

Andreas

[Cpl Steiner]

In some ways I think it would be simpler to designate areas of dense jungle as impassable blocking terrain. No movement or firing is allowed through it. On the outskirts of these areas you might get less dense jungle that you can actually move around in and fire through, of similar density to normal forest or woodland.

Some FPS games have had a good stab at portraying jungle, such as "Viet Cong: Purple Haze". In jungle fighting all sides make heavy use of trails, streams, dry river beds and gullies devoid of jungle for ease of movement, and this is reflected in the sorts of maps you get to fight in in the game. A similar approach could be taken for CMx2.

[Hans]

Jungle was a problem. I did a number of Jungle based scenarios for Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma, Borneo and Philipines-they were okay but were very road oriented. Palm trees on dirt was a horrid pinkish color!

My own exploration into the PTO showed that there was vast amount of fighting that is not well known (to NA audiences) but very interesting none the less - Jungle and Urban fighting will be real challenges for CM. Probably the only more difficult will be tunnel and sewer fighting....