Dynamic Entry

[Sgt.Rock of Easy Company]

We need a Dynamic entry command for use in clearing buildings in this game. Ive had a few times where Ill enter a building and get mowed down from the lack of fighting from my men (they just run to their waypoint).

What im suggesting is a command that is used on buildings. The troops will line up along the wall (kinda like they do already), but before entering the building, will chuck two grenades in, then rush in. But instead of continuing to rush, fire on the move and resposition till the floor is clear. If ordered higher than the first floor, they will do the same, but upon entering upper floors, they will not use grenades (for floor entry, but close quarters they still use them).

It would also be useful to have a quick version, but with some differences. The use would be if a firefight is currently taking place, a unit can cross a street (or disembark) and effectively take a building with low amounts of enemy combatents in them. Grenades would not be used for entry, but the same weapons ready when moving into the room would. Of course this command will make the units (relatively, depeding on the situation) more vulnerable once inside the building if properly occupied.

[thewood]

I wouldn't mind if they just abstracted it. As they enter a house under an ENTRY command, they become a big icon and you just hear the firefight and see the results whenits done. Thats better than having micromanage them into the house.

[rudel.dietrich]

Use hunt when clearing buildings

It works the best of all the movement commands

[thewood]

The problem with hunt is that the units stop where they are and you have to go back and tell them to move again after the firefight. I would suggest to BFC going back to the old hunt-style command where they continue the move after the firefight.

Why wouldn't quick work. Would they stop an shoot and then continue?

I am asking out of ignorance. I have tried a couple of building entries and between my incompetence and a few AI issues, I totally coked em up.

[Sgt.Rock of Easy Company]

Yea, but the way hunt works now, if there are enemies in other buildings or down the road, they will stop where they are and not proceed.

I could see it becoming a micromanaging problem like thewood said, though grenades being used in entry would be good, especially if its a known enemy location. It could be a movement command to use grenades and for used automatically (no grenades) when using quick to enter buildings.

Either way or whatever, the AI needs to enter buildings in a combat zone better.

EDIT- so far none of the commands Ive used will they fire after running into the enemy. In fact, the usually either sit in the floor together for a little then shoot, or run past to the next floor then fight. Though a few times now, a waiting enemy (12 men), that I assume were unsuppressed, just mow them down as I enter (or move about the floor).

[rlg85]

Yeah , hunt would probably be perfect, if only it was like the original hunt and they would continue after contact was over. Add it to the list of "I hope it gets worked on a bit"

[Cameroon]

rudel, any chance we could get a video of how that works in practice?

[Sgt.Rock of Easy Company]

Originally posted by rlg85:

Yeah , hunt would probably be perfect, if only it was like the original hunt and they would continue after contact was over. Add it to the list of "I hope it gets worked on a bit"

Well, we need something that will make them move, even in contact (someone ontop of some buildings down the road, or otherwise not in the building your entering), so that they'll rush in and gun down the contact they make in the building.

If they only start moving after losing contact, im afraid it would be too late.

[ChrisND]

And pathing for entering buildings really needs some work. Far too often half the squad gets slaughtered trying to enter a building because of instead of keeping the building between themselves and enemy fire they feel compelled to run out into the street or open ground before doing a circle and coming back. And there's nothin I can do it (even with detailed waypoints).

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by thewood:

The problem with hunt is that the units stop where they are and you have to go back and tell them to move again after the firefight. I would suggest to BFC going back to the old hunt-style command where they continue the move after the firefight.

Why wouldn't quick work. Would they stop an shoot and then continue?

I am asking out of ignorance. I have tried a couple of building entries and between my incompetence and a few AI issues, I totally coked em up.

An entry command suggestion is a good one and I will suggest it.

The hunt suggestion will help until if and when something else comes along

From my beta notes here is what I found the various movement commands to be used best as

Move - Standard patrol walk. Use this in non danger situations to converse stamina.

Quick - A very brisk jog. Use this to get from place to place like to cross streets or bound short to medium distances.

Uses stamina quickly so long distance movement is not recomended

This also decreases a units situational awareness so do not use this command when you are looking for the enemy

Slow - Makes units crawl.

I only use this for Syrian units to infiltrate units in urban areas or move snipers and ATGM teams to roof tops or to the crests of hills.

Very very slow but also stealthy

Fast - A flat out run

I only use this for emergencies or when withdrawing my Syrian forces after a ambush back to their fall back posistions.

Saps stamina very quickly

Hunt - Moves units the same pace as 'Move'

But puts them in combat posture and they drop and seek cover upon seein the enemy and then engage

I use move and hunt 90% of them time when issuing orders

I only use quick when I am 90% certain I am not going to get shot at or I need a unit to cross the street and do not want to stop and engage

So here is how I would solve your problem

I would use move to get my units into the jump off posistions

Then use hunt to find the enemy

Then when I found a building I wanted to clear I would use my heavy assets to supress the enemy

Then use quick to move a squad or squad to the corner or a building

Then when next to the building I would then use the hunt command for each and every floor until I cleared out the building

One more thing I notice is people under utilize fire teams

We spent alot of time making these better than CM 1

The US army (and most militaries) utilize fire teams for MOUT combat

Use one fire teams with the M249s for supression and use the other to clear buildings

And take your time!

I cannot stress this enough

Quick moving units all over the place will get them chewed up

Use slow small movements

Once your find the enemy do not press the issue

Bring up more firepower and defeat that enemy in detail

I play in RT mode and use pause A LOT

There is no shame in pausing the game and issuing orders

Hopefully some of this will help

Maybe it won't

But there it is

I will pass along your building clearing command suggestion

It is a good one

[PSY]

rudel, what about Assault? Where would you put that in your list? Does this work for entering buildings?

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by PSY:

rudel, what about Assault? Where would you put that in your list? Does this work for entering buildings?

I forgot about assault

I do not find myself using it alot

What is does is breaks your team into two fire teams and one team supports the other fire team

I find myself breaking the fireteams myself and then using hunt

I will mess about more with the command and see how it works

[thewood]

That is great advice.

In RT, it would seem almost like you would have to put the rest of the battle on hold until this is done for each squad.

In WEGO, it would seem like this would take forever, becuase you can't string some of these commands together and you would have to wait until the completion of each turn. The other issue in WEGO is the US soldiers never pull back on their own. In CM, if they started taking casualties, they would more than like crawl away. In SF, they will just stand there and take it.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by thewood:

That is great advice.

In RT, it would seem almost like you would have to put the rest of the battle on hold until this is done for each squad.

In WEGO, it would seem like this would take forever, becuase you can't string some of these commands together and you would have to wait until the completion of each turn. The other issue in WEGO is the US soldiers never pull back on their own. In CM, if they started taking casualties, they would more than like crawl away. In SF, they will just stand there and take it.

In RT you can string together orders which I find myself doing alot

I have not played turn based since the very early dats of the beta

I was like most everyone here and did not like the idea of RT

But early in the beta they asked us to test it and I never went back

I find myself easily able to manage up to a company sized game with ease

And being able to double click on anything and select the entire platoon or company makes thing so much easier than in CM 1 days where I had to do long distance moves one unit at a time

No I can double click and move a company clear across the map in seconds

I encourage everyone to give RT a try

I think many will find some advantages to playing that way

I think the battle flows much better and games take much less time which is good for me since I have limted playing time

And with a simple key press of escape you can pause the battle and issue orders at any point

Pausing also helps me break the battle down and makes me take my time

Pause and issue a set of orders

Watch it unfold

Pause and issue a set of orders

Watch it unfold

etc etc

It breaks the battle down into small phases and helps me cordinate my forces much more easily

The battle progresses and things seems like I am in control and every possibility is accounted for

So again I cannot stress this enough

Take your time and dont just rush your infanty across four city blocks to an objective

Keep your units within supporting distance of one another, use overwhelming fire power, use the slower movement commands and keep your units out of LOS as much as possile by keeping them out of areas were LOS lines are long

Scenarios were designed to be 45 minutes, 60 minutes or even longer

Make use of all that time

[thewood]

My main holdback on RT is that I can't pause and issue orders in elite.

[rudel.dietrich]

Ok

I logged your suggestion for both the new entry command and for being able to pause and issue orders in elite mode in RT

Hopefully something good will come of it, both are good ideas

[George MC]

Clearing house - use assault and ensure your waypoints run along the edge of the house - works fine for me, and the grunts look like they are clearing a house. FWIW having back-up fire support also works. Mind if the house is held by anyhting that is unsupressed expect to suffer casualties...

House clearing in CMSF, as in RL is pretty bloody work. Watch out for the red circles of doom!

Cheers fur noo

George

[PSY]

Originally posted by George Mc:

Clearing house - use assault and ensure your waypoints run along the edge of the house - works fine for me, and the grunts look like they are clearing a house. FWIW having back-up fire support also works. Mind if the house is held by anyhting that is unsupressed expect to suffer casualties...

I had a full health squad assault a building with one terrorist-type in it on the 2nd floor (can't remember if it was a regular or elite version). He must have dropped a grenade or something, because the next thing I knew there were four dead US soliders outside the door. We did take the terrorist out, but 4-1 casualty ratio is not good.

[Battlefront.com]

No new Commands. There are too many as there is as far as I am concerned. We need to solve any problems by having the existing stuff do what people expect it to, then having everybody use that behavior. The latter might be the harder thing

Best way to clear out a building is to move to the outside door using a Command like QUICK. Then use ASSAULT into the first floor of the building (or from another level, the same level you are currently on). It is not advisable to rush house cleaning, so I'd recommend not using a single Squad to go to two floors at once. Use a second Squad if you feel you need to rush. Alternatively, if you are sure the first floor is unoccupied (more likely you're just gambling here) you should plot an Assault Command on the first and second floors.

What this does is it causes your guys to not spread out so much. Assault also puts your guys into Maximum Violence mode. They will shoot and toss grenades like crazy. No other Command will give you this sort of firepower usage. The tradeoff is it is VERY tiring, which is realistic. Clearing a building is the most strenuous task infantry can perform (besides a force march with full gear and some red faced drill instructor speculating on the parentage of the squad members ).

This SHOULD work well. If it doesn't, report back.

Steve

[adultery]

Originally posted by thewood:

My main holdback on RT is that I can't pause and issue orders in elite.

x2

[PSY]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Best way to clear out a building is to move to the outside door using a Command like QUICK. Then use ASSAULT into the first floor of the building (or from another level, the same level you are currently on).

For WEGO should we plot an Assault to 1st Floor, and then chain/link a second Assault command from 1st Floor to 2nd Floor command after that and so on, or are we better of Assault to 1st Floor, wait until end of turn, then next turn Assault to 2nd Floor, and so on.

[Battlefront.com]

Pause is coming back to Elite. Seemed like a good idea at the time, testers didn't complain, but there is more reason to put it in than to keep it out, so in it goes.

PSY,

Yup, plotting once on each floor will work. The problem with this is that if your guys run into significant problems on the first floor, it might be unwise for them to go upstairs. Having said that, I think it is unlikely that a Squad will enter, clear, and move out of a floor within the space of 60 seconds if there is significant opposition.

It comes down to best judgement and how much you want to roll the dice. Oh, and how many guys you got around. Rushing upstairs with the only Squad you have because the other one is pinned down in the street is a risk worth taking (probably anyway!).

Steve