CMSF vs Combat Mission

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Personally I'm getting tired of the WW2 whiners.

I would be one, but all the current ones would tar me with a nasty brush!!

I hate all the WW2 whiners that give WW2 whining a bad name! :mad: :mad:

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Zemke:

Well for one I have been there and as an Officer planning the missions. I have read countless AARs on this.

Hehe, well then why the totally out of whack comments as above that a Syrian campaign would be easier then GW1 or GW2...sorry its just hard to understand how you could think such a thing with the vast range of experience you say you have.

You say youve enlighted us as to why the above is true but it must be well disguised as Ive looked and looked and failed to find any evidence of it beyond your own assumption that you are, of course, correct. One look at the recent events in Fallujah against a poorly organized, poorly trained and poorly equipped force should tell you to question this belief, but Im not interested in arguing the point as I doubt anything will change your opinion.

As for having to earn anything from you no I do not nor do I have any interest in doing so. You past few posts have been more than a little rude and obnoxious even though I have attempted to be helpful, and as such your opinions hold little weight. It is very hard to respect someone who cant put forward an opposing view in a clear and respectful manner, sorry.

Dan

[ October 12, 2005, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Mord]

Originally posted by Zemke:

Defense Rests........

Defense has been saying the same stupid junk all the other whiners have been saying. I wanted WWII too but I didn't get it...YET.

But my mind is open enough to realize I can't make any statements on how CMSF will play out until I ACTUALLY play it! Wow...what a concept...

ALL of you guy's that think YOU KNOW how the game will be are being arrogant as hell. How can you know? Any game could be fun...OPTIMAL WORD HERE is game...other optimal word is fun...

For the record I haven't been to war...except of course for The Dread Weiner Dogs....and EMRYSSSSSS.....

Mord.

[Liebchen]

Dale, don't be a pr*ck.

I don't necessarily agree with Zemke, but I hear his concerns. I choose to have some expectation that the makers of CM:BB will hew to their previously established standard of quality. But by keeping this hope, I am not necessarily earning the right to treat others like sh*t -- and neither have you.

Let's just wait until the demo comes out and see how we all -- individually -- like it. Some of us will love it to death, some of us will find it OK, and some of us will be frustrated or repulsed by it. SO WHAT? If someone else doesn't like it as much as you do, are you going to track them down and slap them around? Of course not.

Now Zemke is simply expressing what many loyal players are feeling. By being a regular and consistent player of CM (which I know him to be) he has earned the right to express him frustration. SO does it hurt you to LET HIM?

Sheesh!

Do buy the game and enjoy. Let those who wish it had been otherwise mope. Your insults are not helping either them or us, OK?

[PseudoSimonds]

He didn't get flamed because he posted his views, he got flamed because he posted the exact same view about 5 different times, starting his own whiney threads twice.

[Battlefront.com]

This is another classic in the long list of messed up logic used to attempt to justify whining as being intellectual and not, as it really is, whining...

Zemke's first comment:

It appears to be a marketing ploy to lure the 14-17 year olds into buying, another flawed idea IMO.

I challenged it, and Zemke replied:

Young guys don't USUALLY play this type of game, but tend towards real time first person games, either dismounted infantry, police/SWAT raids, or armored combat sims with them in control of the vehicle. There are some exceptions of course

So, what he has done is decided that we did it for marketing reasons and that we are stupid enough to think that it would work. This is akin to thinking Zemke is really an alien and that his ploy won't work. See... I can make up stuff too Now, here is something not made up...

We know that CM, be it first or second generation, has a very limited cross over appeal with the twitch gamers. They don't want to play CM type games because they require thinking. It could be WWII, Modern, or naked WWF superchicks tactically deployed to make out with each other... it doesn't matter, the vast majority won't buy it (though the WWF superchick angle might get us a heck of a lot of demo downloads!). Yet some, including Zemke, have stated flat out that we aren't aware of this and that we are trying to counteract this reality by choosing a topic purely based on the notion that it is the best means of going mass market. This is first and foremost an insult to us (the people that make games for a living and survive because of good judgement) and secondly to all the people who are looking forward to the challenge of modern combat.

And all because little Johnny and little Billy didn't get things their way. Boo-hoo.

I don't mind people not being happy. I don't mind people being skeptical. I do mind people behaving like the most spoiled rotten of children when mommy doesn't buy them the shiny toy they point to when in the toy store. That irks me because I would like to think being an adult means behaving like one.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

By being a regular and consistent player of CM (which I know him to be) he has earned the right to express him frustration.

He has earned nothing. He bought our games and that is it. Read the user agreement and warrantee in the manual. Nowhere does it state that any buyer of our games has the right to be disrespectful and childish towards us. Even the fine print doesn't say "and if you don't like our future game choices, you have the right to throw a tantrum". Zemke might not be as bad as the now infamous Pheasant Plucker meltdown, but its the same insulting and condescending ill informed spilt milk whining at the heart of the message.

I guess we should be flattered, in a way, that people care so much about what we do that they spend their time here blowing gaskets and trash talking us, but I'm not impressed. Fairweather friends have always irked me. If you don't like what we are doing, fine... go away and then come back later when we've done something you like. We never said would appeal to the person who bought the last one, even if we could do it (and the number of CMBOers that didn't buy CMBB proves we're right about that). What is so hard to understand about that?

Steve

[ October 12, 2005, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Dogface]

Dogface I was 99% bored, 1% adrinline rush. Its not the Normandy Beach Invasion. Its dull, boring and HOT work most of the time, particulalry after doing it for a long time. Troops cannot stay keyed up every second, its impossible.

No kidding. I was bored alot also. I typed in combat Zemke. CM:SF deals with combat. Not the before, not the after, but the down and dirty "mad minute" (ok well 30 or more) of combat.

[ October 12, 2005, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Dogface ]

[BDW]

If Zemke was really an officer planning missions in Iraq, then all i have to say is: NO WONDER we're losing

[Zemke]

Steve,

Responding to my post in the manner you have seems to be rather....emotional. If by attacking people who have spend their hard earned money buying your products, then yes I do question BF's judgement. I question BF's judement in the direction you went with CMX2. I question where you get your military advice. I question what you guys are thinking. I really hope I am wrong and CMSF does well. True I am gripping about not getting what I (and others) wanted. Do I care YOU don't like it, NO. Its your job to protect your product and it is only natural that your ego may have been hurt a bit by questioning BF's judgement or marketing "savy". Again, I do hope CMSF does well, for the sake of wargaming. From a military perspective, CMSF is a non-starter. Granted I am talking about the "setting".....Syrian. Perhaps people can pretend it is not the Syrians, and suspend their dis-belief so to speak, and get into it, I can not.

AND Steve......(you will like this)

As for your Fallujah comment, that really tells me how much you DON'T know about the subject you are doing a game on. The combat there was tough, and our men performed great. American forces cleared a major built-up area in six weeks with six Battalions in the face of determined resistance with realatively little collateral damage. Every major weapon system was used, PGMs from aircraft, Spector Gun Ships, M1A2 tanks and Brads. Every building was cleared and we killed a LOT of BAD GUYS! When we fight today, we are NOT going to give them ANY chances, every weapon is used and planned for. All of which supports my point that the Syrian Army, would get the crap killed out it before you can say Boo! So either you will NOT have a realistic portrayal of a war with Syrian, because if you do, it will be little challenge to play the Americans and not very much fun to play the Syrians. Or you guys will create an unrealistic game by giving the Syrians an Army they don't have and could not field to give them a "gaming" chance. So yes I question what you guys are thinking. Sounds to me like you guys need to hire someone who knows something about doctrine and warfighting. COL Hunt (of FOX News fame)would be good, he is a real soldier's soldier, and would tell you the same thing.....no matter how you slice it, Syrian would get the bloody crap kicked out of them in a hurry.

KwazyDog,

You guys act like I killed your mother or something. IF I have been " rude and condescending ", what are you guys?

BDW said " We are losing ". Yes mistakes have been made, but we are NOT losing. I find it a real slap in the face to so many who have served there, to even say that. Sure, if you believe the media, we are losing, everything is bad and nothing is working. We are doing a lot of good over there. Building schools, drilling water wells, feeding the people and so on. None of that is in the news, only the how many soldiers were killed doing their duty. It is slow work and it takes time, but we can and must succeed. The people there are free, can vote, are creating a new governement. Will it work, only time will tell, but I think it can. Keep in mind we are getting three groups of people to work together who in the past have killed each other on a regular basis. Most of the people support our presence till their own Army can pick up the fight. Most of the enemy killed are not from Iraq. If this war is lost, it will be lost at home, in the hearts and minds of Americans, not in Iraq. Don't believe everything you see on TV or read in the papers, they are selling bad news because bad news sells.

[Kurtz]

Sounds like I accidentily turned into Faux News. :mad:

Next you'll tell me the Syrians will welcome the inv..liberators with flowers and kisses, just like the Iraqis did.

Assumption is the mother of all f-ups, you know.

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Zemke:

You guys act like I killed your mother or something. IF I have been rude and condescending, what are you guys?

Hehe sorry but no, you totally overrate yourself there my friend. I think of you more as another spoiled child in the playground whom didnt get to play with the right color marbles. Anyone who wishes to review your comments and my responses on this forum can and thus can judge for themselves...they are there for all to see, so lets leave it at that.

Oh and I think it was I whom mentioned the Fallujah scenario? There is a lot that could be said here but Ill just pose one thought...do you seriously feel that the military could spend 6 weeks clearing each minor urban centre they come upon in a major campaign...I guess so if you feel that Syrian forces would be a walk in the park compared to the second gulf war.

You also seem to be overlooking the fact that well over one hundred soldiers lost their lives in the relatively small battle in Fallujah and many hundreds more were wounded out of what was a reasonably small force that went into action. All this against a bunch of poorly organized, trained and equipped 'thugs' (using a Fox news term to keep you happy) that were in the town. Personally I find it very uncomfortable that you brush over this so lightly, but each to their own.

So it seems that little more can be said on the matter...you think your right and we shouldnt disagree with you. As such, lets lock this thread and move on...not much more can come of it.

Dan

[ October 13, 2005, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]