I'm tired

[Jaska.]

Originally posted by Moon:

In some ways, we're closer to completion than many here probably think; in others, we're miles away if you expect the usual marketing crap from us like pretty pictures and game trailers.

Take your time.

I want to have an outstanding game in, say, summer 2007 before a crappy one this summer !

[Salkin]

Another thing to think about is , that if they started hyping the game too much now with screenshots and stuff and then released the game a year later the waiting would be totally unbareable and they would probably loose customers.

When they are near release I'm pretty sure they will send out screens and anouncements to several gaming sites/mags so that all the old fans will return in droves.

Until then , play some more Oblivion....it's not a bad game you know .

//Salkin

[Panzer76]

Well then, perhaps we can figure out hwo far away it is from completion by Moons comments:

Originally posted by Moon:

The result of this is that there is very little to show to the outside world, until we get to the last 10-20%.Martin

So, being optemistic, lets say its 75% done now. Combined with:

Originally posted by Moon:

It's going to be very much like that, Peter, especially because we're not only building a single game (for now nearly 3 years!)Martin

So, it took almost 3 years to get it 75% done.

Noe, you figure out how long the remaining 25% will take.. seems we will be lucky if CMx2 will come out in 2006.

[Cpl Steiner]

I'm sorry but I just don't buy the idea Moon has given us, that somehow because BFC is a small team we can't expect any feedback. It takes only minutes to make a post giving an update on progress. Just something like, "today we got the vehicle suspension code done and it's working like a dream" or "next week we plan to test the passenger disembarking code". A simple developer diary like this would be plenty to keep us all interested. Whatever the reasons for BFC not posting updates, it's not time. Having worked in software development myself I know that someone in BFC must have a spreadsheet or something of tasks to be done and tasks completed and I don't see why it needs to be top secret. I don't mind being told we can't have any updates but please BFC, give us a sensible reason. I suspect the real reason is, "we are making this game first and foremost for ourselves and we can't be bothered wasting a second of our time keeping you lot informed." At least that would be honest.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Prinz Eugen_2:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KG_Leopard:

There are many other great games out there.

Great, then you've got plenty of other games to think about while waiting for CM:SF, yeah ? </font>

[Capt. Toleran]

I guess the reason why some of us express our displeasure on threads like these is that we remember when Battlefront used to share information with its customer base. Considering the latest posts from Battlefront on game features are from last year (and no vehicle list that I know of, though I am only a part-time lurker), many of us who were here during the CMBO development period and subsequent games are understandably puzzled and miffed by Battlefront's silence on the topic, and the lack of feedback on their own promotional forums. Even a message like "check back here in 2 months" would be more satisfying than what we have now.

Oh, and to whoever said "Battlefront knows best how to market their products" -- many a company has fallen prey to their own hubris after creating some winning products (think New Coke, Daiktana, Doom 3, etc.). The success of CMBO wasn't just that it was a great (and to its credit, long-enduring) wargame -- The community that was built around it and had a hand in shaping the game was the real marketing success story there. People like me were brought in by word of mouth, and became evangelists for the product (I personally bought 3 copies of CMBO for myself and family). I see no such community here, only disparate posts that even someone like me actually interested in the non-WWII nature of this upcoming game finds boring. One good bone would reverse this, and likely kick off some enthusiasm here (see the post where they discussed control features to see an example of this).

Bottom line -- Companies change, people have short attention spans, products need marketing, and people don't like having their patience abused. It is quite clear that unlike CMBO, CMBB, or CMAK, Battlefront does not care about our input on this product, and this to me marks a clear deviation from the core beliefs that all of us respected Battlefront for. Fanboys, keep saying the Great Pumpkin is coming, because the rest of us got tired and went to bed a long time ago.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Moon:

...unlike many other games which are 90% about marketing and 10% about the game, we usually focus on the latter first, and add the pretty stuff LAST.

Excellent. Carry on.

Michael

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Moon:

In some ways, we're closer to completion than many here probably think; in others, we're miles away if you expect the usual marketing crap from us like pretty pictures and game trailers.

Like you did for CMBO?

Oh, I forget, the pictures were not pretty.

All the best

Andreas

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Moon:

In some ways, we're closer to completion than many here probably think; in others, we're miles away if you expect the usual marketing crap from us like pretty pictures and game trailers.

Like you did for CMBO?

Oh, I forget, the pictures were not pretty.

All the best

Andreas </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Capt. Toleran:

I guess the reason why some of us express our displeasure on threads like these is that we remember when Battlefront used to share information with its customer base.

I think that is because 6-8 years ago BTS (as it was then) was breaking a whole lot of new ground and to a certain extent groping in the dark. It was natural then for them to be bouncing ideas off of us (a much smaller group back then) to try to figure out what would work, both as a convincing representation of history and as a fun game. Now though, they have much greater confidence in their own vision of how things should go and don't feel they need as much day to day input on each tiny detail. Time will tell whether and how much that view is correct, but it seems like that is the premise they are operating on.

Then too, there is the problem of what might be called industrial espionage. Back in the beginning, most of the old pros didn't think BTS had anything worth stealing, that what they were trying to do could not be done, and that BTS was simply wasting their time. BTS could afford to be very open about what it was doing. Then when CM:BO took off like a rocket, suddenly BFC's (as it had by then become) plans and techniques were worth glomming onto. There was even a guy who showed up a few months after the release of the game who was urging BFC to become a publicly traded company so he could buy stock! It was pretty clear from his posts and his hasty departure that he hadn't the slightest interest in the game as a game, but only as an investment opportunity.

As a consequence of those and other factors, BFC now have to play their cards closer to their chests to avoid getting ripped off by third-rate wannabes. Sad but true. Welcome to the capitalist system.

Michael

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

As a consequence of those and other factors, BFC now have to play their cards closer to their chests to avoid getting ripped off by third-rate wannabes. Sad but true. Welcome to the capitalist system.

Michael

I don't think that line of argument holds any water at all. Companies all over have developer diaries and exactly *what* do you think other companies could steal from a dev diary of SF? "Omg, they are finished doing the ATGM modeling, lets.. umm.. well.. do something about it fast!!!!"

[Scipio]

Michael, I think that's ridiculous.

Regaring that guy you've mentioned, at that time everybody was investing money into everything with a .com in it's name. This times are gone.

Fact is, that no other company has ever tried to bring a game with a we-go system on the market, at least none I have ever heard of. There are a lot of 2d strategy games. Most of them look like games from the early 1990's, like the HPS releases. I seriously wonder who spends $50 for them.

And there are a lot of RTS games. Surely something worth mentioning is the Total War series, even if it's not comparable to CM.

I guess the companies are not up to risk a lot of money with a cheap copy of CM when they can sell some hundred thousand copies of Total war.

However the last BFC releases (T-72, SC2), even if they were build from other development teams, haven't rised much interest, at least in Europe.

[Moon]

KG_Leopard... last time I heard, T-72 was on the way to hit 75,000 copies (retail) in Europe. Not too shabby. SC2 just came out in German retail, too early to have any numbers, so I don't know where you have your data from.

The problem with this thread is that people are making up things without any inside knowledge. Funnier even: they dismiss what I posted, saying "I don't believe it", and then go on to state their opinions of what REALLY is happening. Too funny!

Truth is that we had very little time to spend on public updates recently, and that we're in a phase right now when there is very little to show until the next milestone is reached, and when no real input from outside is needed.

If you're bored in the meantime, then that's entirely understandable. And if you want to call our "marketing" sub-optimal, go right ahead. But to claim that we don't care about the community or outside input or that we're deliberately keeping people in the dark just because we can, is simply ridiculous.

The time for input will come soon enough, don't worry - once we get the next milestone out, and get to the juicier parts for CMSF after announcing a formal beta version - but at the moment we have a very good idea of what we want to achieve.

Oh, and whoever here said that it would only take a few minutes to post a dev diary has no clue. Big teams have people hired full-time just to do stuff like that.

Martin

[Salkin]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Capt. Toleran:

I guess the reason why some of us express our displeasure on threads like these is that we remember when Battlefront used to share information with its customer base.

I think that is because 6-8 years ago BTS (as it was then) was breaking a whole lot of new ground and to a certain extent groping in the dark. It was natural then for them to be bouncing ideas off of us (a much smaller group back then) to try to figure out what would work, both as a convincing representation of history and as a fun game. Now though, they have much greater confidence in their own vision of how things should go and don't feel they need as much day to day input on each tiny detail. Time will tell whether and how much that view is correct, but it seems like that is the premise they are operating on.

Then too, there is the problem of what might be called industrial espionage. Back in the beginning, most of the old pros didn't think BTS had anything worth stealing, that what they were trying to do could not be done, and that BTS was simply wasting their time. BTS could afford to be very open about what it was doing. Then when CM:BO took off like a rocket, suddenly BFC's (as it had by then become) plans and techniques were worth glomming onto. There was even a guy who showed up a few months after the release of the game who was urging BFC to become a publicly traded company so he could buy stock! It was pretty clear from his posts and his hasty departure that he hadn't the slightest interest in the game as a game, but only as an investment opportunity.

As a consequence of those and other factors, BFC now have to play their cards closer to their chests to avoid getting ripped off by third-rate wannabes. Sad but true. Welcome to the capitalist system.

Michael </font>

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Salkin:

I've even seen screenshots of games looking a lot like the CM series.

//Salkin

*sigh* And how many YEARS after CM did that happen? Im sure your referring to Panzer Command which will be a CM lite anyways. There is nothing to protect against industrial "spying" here now, the game is too far ahead in the dev schedule to make any impact.

[Moon]

Actually while some of what Michael said is close to the truth, worry about competition plays a very minor role. It did play a bigger role early on, because the market was getting flooded with similar games. But soon it became clear that there was nothing to fear as a bunch of good looking but hollow RTS games came and went, and by now we're so far ahead of the curve that it really plays no role at all.

Hey, I just realized that PC games these days are exactly like 18 year old blondes, good looking and hollow. I guess that explains a whole lot of things...

Martin

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Moon:

Hey, I just realized that PC games these days are exactly like 18 year old blondes, good looking and hollow.

You mean we become content providers?

[Capt. Toleran]

Honestly, I don't see why a team has to be hired for a developer diary. We're talking 1-3 paragraphs a day (or even a week). Those of us who went to college, while working, remember averaging 1-3 pages a day (3-9 paragraphs) on top of readings, our normal work, and family life (and sometimes these assignments were in fact diaries). Even if it was filled with mundane minutia or funny stuff about the dev team, surely a small update would not be hard to write. A paragraph averages four sentences.

Just a proactive defense here, before I get labeled as one of those forum trolls (not that anyone has accused me of this) due to my recent negative posts on this board -- If you do a search, you'll see that my participation in this forum is largely passive, and except for some grousing about MGs being broken in CMBO (they were, and everyone knows it), I have been either supportive or silent. I post only because I remember what Battlefront used to do in terms of customer relationship and marketing, and it saddens me that out of all of the games I am intersted that are coming out in the near future (laughable at this point for this one), this is the one I care about the most, yet have heard and seen the least of. Anyone in Sales can tell you the customer relationship is key, and anyone in Marketing can tell you that no marketing is no way to go (I'm involved in both for my company, a large media firm). Some of us long-term CM supporters (how many people love a PC game and still play it for 7 years?) are not feeling much love right now from Battlefront.

Alright, I'll shut up already and leave things alone, I've probably said more than my share.

[ May 13, 2006, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Capt. Toleran ]

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Moon:

KG_Leopard... last time I heard, T-72 was on the way to hit 75,000 copies (retail) in Europe. Not too shabby. SC2 just came out in German retail, too early to have any numbers, so I don't know where you have your data from.

Martin

Martin, I speak about the things that have been written in the German game news. T-72 was rated (from all what I have seen) at 50-60%. Same for SC2, which has been descriped for example as "Commando Sleep - War of the slide rules".

Will CMSF be a revolution as CMBO was? Maybe...maybe not. I will surely give it a try if I don't miss it, since I have stopped to visit this page, because there is nothing new to find anyway. Even if I understand your reasons, it doesn't change anything.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by KG_Leopard:

Same for SC2, which has been descriped for example as "Commando Sleep - War of the slide rules".

Depends on the magazines that you read - in Finland's biggest gaming journal SC2 got over 90% and editor's recommendation ('top of art' rating). But it's a magazine that has several competent wargaming editors. I can only assume that the magazines you read are of different class.

I have stopped to visit this page, because there is nothing new to find anyway.

Yeah, you have stopped visiting this page. For a moment I thought you were posting in this thread, but I must have been hallucinating. If your life depends on having news, then why not just subscribe to the mailing list instead of bitching? I'm sure they'll send you a nice e-mail notification when the game has gone gold, then.

[Cpl Steiner]

Sergei's post above was directed at someone else but I've subscribed to the mailing list as he suggested anyway. I will now try my best to forget about CM:SF and hope the subscription system works so I don't miss the game completely. This forum is a big waste of my time anyway. Checking this forum for non-existant news has become a bit of an addiction I can do without. This may sound bitter but it really isn't meant to be. I just need to spend less time here as it's pretty pointless.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KG_Leopard:

Same for SC2, which has been descriped for example as "Commando Sleep - War of the slide rules".

Depends on the magazines that you read - in Finland's biggest gaming journal SC2 got over 90% and editor's recommendation ('top of art' rating). But it's a magazine that has several competent wargaming editors. I can only assume that the magazines you read are of different class.</font>

[flammenwerfer]

As spring '06 has passed, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect some type of announcement from BFC, regarding a target delivery date.

Are we entitled to this information? No. Will it help those of us who need to upgrade our systems? Yes.

[ May 13, 2006, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Flammenwerfer ]

[stikkypixie]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KG_Leopard:

Same for SC2, which has been descriped for example as "Commando Sleep - War of the slide rules".

Depends on the magazines that you read - in Finland's biggest gaming journal SC2 got over 90% and editor's recommendation ('top of art' rating). But it's a magazine that has several competent wargaming editors. I can only assume that the magazines you read are of different class.</font>

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KG_Leopard:

Same for SC2, which has been descriped for example as "Commando Sleep - War of the slide rules".

Depends on the magazines that you read - in Finland's biggest gaming journal SC2 got over 90% and editor's recommendation ('top of art' rating). But it's a magazine that has several competent wargaming editors. I can only assume that the magazines you read are of different class.</font>