Assault on Taleban stronghold underway

[hammelman]

For me it really comes down to this. WWII, fanatical Nazi zealots take over a country and they lead to the deaths of some 60 million people. They gas, they bomb, the burn, they destroy. You're point is that we cant trust the zealots. Of course we can't, thats not the point.

The point is eventually something will happen, something will turn, somebody's children will have had enough. Unfortunately we cant just take out their government like the good old days - but its just a matter of time. I realize we're in for the long haul, and i have actually always agreed with the invasion of Afghanistan.

Yesterday in the new you see that GWB wrote Kim Jong Il a letter, who would have thought in the million years that he would do that? Is it possible that finally GWB blinked? Is there anything wrong with that? I personally find it highly pragmatic, and even honorable.

I realized it might take 20 years to pacify Afghanistan, and i think its worth it, but eventually cooler heads will prevail. People have always found a way to eventually come together and stop killing each other.

The thing that really gets me is the people who say we cant negotiate with these people, but thats exactly why this ridiculous cycle keeps happening. We have to negotiate, we MUST negotiate. Maybe not now, maybe not for another 5-10 years, but eventually someone will say ENOUGH.

Regarding suicide attacks, ever heard of the Charge of the Light Brigade? British Cavalry riding to their certain death for King and Country. Or maybe you've heard of Pickett's Charge - certain death. Suicide all of them, but glorious death for a cause - their cause. What would you do against tanks and airplanes? would you throw rocks? No, you would do what you had to. You only say its wrong because its not your family getting its door kicked in, its not your culture being mistakenly disrespected, its not your crop being burned by the government.

[skelley]

Regarding suicide attacks, ever heard of the Charge of the Light Brigade? British Cavalry riding to their certain death for King and Country. Or maybe you've heard of Pickett's Charge - certain death.

There is a huge difference between these fanatics and the soldiers in the quote above. I'll bet all wore uniforms distinguishing themselves as combatants and I'm just guessing they didn't blow themselves up in crowded market places killing innocent people. I'll bet they didn't behead their enemys because they were of a different faith.

[skelley]

Negotiation is a long way off in my opinion. They first must convince us that they are no longer following the ideology of radical Islam

[reel-why]

Wow, you guys are really intense into this.

I'm really more interested to hear about the tactical maneuvers coming out of this afghanistan operation.

BBC was saying US troops are leading via helicopter insertion. Does anyone know if that means rope? or landing nearby?

I'm curious to know who's involved. Pretty sure there's some british forces in addition to the stateside troops. Any other NATO countries involved?

[reel-why]

And I'm curious about that "body count of 30" from earlier.

"The Taleban say they have 2,000 troops defending the town in Helmand province, which they seized in February." -BBC

I wouldn't necessarily trust that count, but it implies more than just a room full of bearded dudes. There's also some substantial minefields set up around the town.

"Friday's attack by British and Afghan forces began in the afternoon, from three directions. Further raids are expected to be carried out on Saturday." -BBC

So is it over now? I don't know the time difference well enough. I noticed they removed the information about US helicopters, perhaps they were saying more than they should have.

[skelley]

I can't find the story on cnn, fox or drudge, so I don't know what is going on.

[reel-why]

And thats why (as a journalism student) I never watch FOX or CNN. I stick to BBC with some AFP or Reuters thrown in. Newswire services are way more up to date.

Interesting thing I found while looking for coverage: There was an airstrike on the town on Dec 3 in which the US claimed a major Taleban leader had been killed. Sounds like this is a quick follow-up while their command is down. I saw a different quote marking 2500 taleban fighters, so it seems no one has a very good idea.

[skelley]

Drudge will usually post links to stories as soon as it shows on any of those sites. Maybe Afganistan isn't considered news anymore by a lot of folks.

[The Warrior]

Originally posted by Leopard II:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DaveDash:

The Brits left far more succcessful colonies than most European powers (Aust, NZ, Canada, USA, Hong Kong, SA, etc).

And as for your second point, ironically, didnt Prince William - a Brit Royal no doubt - want to be sent to Iraq?

Please add the USA to the list of the biggest hotspots! No other nation has started more wars in the last 50 years .

Skelley, do a search about it on your own

Okay, it's late here. Have a nice weekend! :cool: </font>

[Bigduke6]

Keep moving and you might see something.

[ December 07, 2007, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Bigduke6 ]

[Bigduke6]

Raise your hand if you think the Taliban can ever be trusted. My hand remains down. And I wonder how many citizens were executed when the Taliban retook the town.

Well, my hand is Way Up.

In answer to your question, I figure it would be the town boss and as many adult male members of his family the Taliban could catch; and the same for the police boss, tax boss. So somewhere between 50-100 men.

Who, in the Afghan scheme of things, are quite probably fair game for vendettas and revenge killings. You don't get to run a town in southern Afghanistan these days without making enemies.

As to negotiating, well,when we were trying to get the Soviets to quit Afghanistan, the Taliban (or more specifically, Pathans and such others willing to fight, in the name of Allah, to free Afghanistan from foreign rule) were our buddies too.

Seems to me, if we can be best buddies for decades with the icky and truly backward House of Saud, we certainly could come to an understanding with the Taliban.

Meanwhile, I'll just sit back and wait for the 1,000-terrorist body count, and news of how the back of the insurgency in the Helmand province just got broken.

Too bad those NATO dudes are going to spend their holidays on this, I bet they'd rather be home with their families. Of course, they're getting paid pretty well and they volunteered.

[skelley]

Well, my hand is Way Up.

In answer to your question, I figure it would be the town boss and as many adult male members of his family the Taliban could catch; and the same for the police boss, tax boss. So somewhere between 50-100 men.

Who, in the Afghan scheme of things, are quite probably fair game for vendettas and revenge killings. You don't get to run a town in southern Afghanistan these days without making enemies.

As to negotiating, well,when we were trying to get the Soviets to quit Afghanistan, the Taliban (or more specifically, Pathans and such others willing to fight, in the name of Allah, to free Afghanistan from foreign rule) were our buddies too.

We had a common enemy then(Russia), and they hadn't given aid to our attackers. We were blind back then to the threat they posed. Now we've had a wake up call or at least should have had a wake up call.

Seems to me, if we can be best buddies for decades with the icky and truly backward House of Saud, we certainly could come to an understanding with the Taliban.

I would rather not deal with the House of Saud, but if they are toppled I believe that even more extreme people will take over. Saudi is one of the worst countries when it comes to radical Islam. But we can trust them slightly more than the Taliban because they have a country to lose while the Taliban has some caves to lose.

[the Fighting Seabee]

Hoorah!

[Steiner14]

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=5932575671781803477

[Panzer76]

1st. Skelly, they didnt negotiate with Taliban, they negotiated with the Eldars for the village, trusting them to defend it. For whatever reason, they didnt. You know, we cant occupy every village in Afghanistan and someday they will have to fend for themselfs.

2nd. This battle wont mean squat in the larger picture. We dont win there with military force alone. And thats something the west still havent taken seriously. I wonder how many lives will be lost before (if) we wake up.

3rd. Sadly Afghan is a sideshow ever since US invaded Iraq and everybody involved is worse off because of it.

4th. Some of you may not know it, but skelly is a right wing nut case, or atleast used to be some years ago. White power etc. Dunno if he has changed his ways.

[skelley]

1st. Skelly, they didnt negotiate with Taliban, they negotiated with the Eldars for the village, trusting them to defend it. For whatever reason, they didnt. You know, we cant occupy every village in Afghanistan and someday they will have to fend for themselfs.

They used the tribal elders as the go between for the negotiation of both the Bits and Taliban to both withdraw from the town. The Brits held up there end and SURPRISE the Taliban didn't.

4th. Some of you may not know it, but skelly is a right wing nut case, or atleast used to be some years ago. White power etc. Dunno if he has changed his ways.

This is a flat out lie, to try to discredit me or you are thinking of Swamp. I have never subscribed to neo nazi or racist beliefs and I would like to know why you think this. In fact I used to get pissed when Swamp would go on his racist rants.

I am however conservative in my political beliefs. In your small mind does the desire for less taxes and less social spending translate into me being Hitler reborn?

I would like an apology and if not please post the quotes that have made you believe I am or was a nazi. If you are gonna flame somebody at least have your facts straight!

[ December 08, 2007, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: skelley ]

[reel-why]

So 12 insurgent casualties have been verified, and at least two children have died.

The taleban were claiming several APC destroyed but the Brits and the Afghan army have said thats not true.

I'm still really curious about the US involvement in that there were helicopters and it was at night. Sounds like some serious cloak and dagger action flick stuff going on.

Interesting note about the children: they "were killed when security forces clashed with Taleban travelling in a convoy with civilians, a spokesman for the Afghan defence ministry said." -BBC

What do you suppose that means? Sneaking out? Holding hostages? I didn't know civilians regularly traveled in convoys, but I suppose it makes sense.

[swamp-]

4th. Some of you may not know it, but skelly is a right wing nut case, or atleast used to be some years ago. White power etc. Dunno if he has changed his ways. [/QB]

That was me. I've been sorry about expressing those views for a while now.

[swamp-]

In fact I used to get pissed when Swamp would go on his racist rants.

Hi skelley. Sorry about that, it was the medication.

[M1A1TC]

How is any of this thread revelant to CMSF??

[skelley]

Hey Swamp! Long time no see. Good to see you changed your mind on those issues. Have you been playin CMSF?

[swamp-]

I'm downloading it. Is it any good?

[skelley]

The 1.04 patch makes it pretty good and hopefully the 1.05 will fix the LOS/LOF problems. Overall I like it but wish it were WWII instead. Modern combat is rather cut and dry, you spot it it will be dead pretty fast and vice versa.

[hammelman]

I don't think we need the personal attacks, they don't add anything to the conversation. Whether it be true or not, it doesn't help.

I see the problem with skelley is that he imposes his morality on the situation. In philosophy its called Moral Relativism. You say cutting off heads is wrong, they say showing the souls of your feet is wrong. To either of our cultures, these have very different and significant meanings. To us in the West life is sweetest thing, for them death in battle for God is the sweetest thing. This whole issue of them not wearing uniforms really is a pointless exercise in seeing from only one perspective, and it stunts the mind.

In the not so distant past it was a very common thing to lop off peoples heads and put them on pikes, why, as a warning to people - this is the price you pay for breaking our rules. The Romans used crucification as a common tool of punishment - i don't really see the difference between stapling someone to a cross to die of exposure, or cutting their head off.

Just because the peoples in the East haven't become "civilized" like us in the West doesn't mean that their form of combat is any more morally repugnant. We fly bombers that wipe villages off the face of the earth at the touch of a button - how is that fair? Why should they wear uniforms? Their country was overtaken by invaders, what flag do they have to fly? You could say that they elected Karzai, but did they really have a choice? I wouldn't argue that the Taliban should be in power, but they did actually take over and administer the country after the Soviets left, just as foreign invaders at one time took over our country and silenced the original inhabitants. Do you think the Native Americans appreciated the Europeans coming and killing them all? Was it wrong for them to take scalps? On and on it goes.

[flamingknives]

Veering wildly off-topic:

Regarding suicide attacks, ever heard of the Charge of the Light Brigade? British Cavalry riding to their certain death for King and Country.

I have, as it happens, heard of the Charge of the Light Brigade. More to the point, I have heard about the real action rather than the romanticised, anti-war version. While losses were heavy, more men remained on their horses at the end of the action than were killed, and the Brigade succeeded in driving the enemy out of the redoubts that they thought were the objective.

Even if the outcome were known before the action, which it wasn't, it doesn't class as a suicide attack by any stretch of the imagination.