Should there be buildings in CM:SF

[Peter Cairns]

Now the obvious answer is yes of course there should numbskull, so I'll explain myself.

A building is aseries of walls plus a roof and floor, so wouldn't it be in some ways better if you got those instead.

Some buildings have Glass on one wall, and others have shops on the ground floor and homes above, some industrial buildings have wooden floors, some concrete and others steel, same with different roofing materials.

So the issue is should the game have pre set buildings or preset building components.

Now obviously there is the whole issue of internal walls etc, which will probably have to be abstract, but the internal "density" could be set as a figure ( from "open" to "heavy") or it could be calculated by adding roof, floor and wall values, ec.

Thought please people...

Peter.

[Wicky]

From the synopsis sticky

Building structures

I don't want to get into too many details about buildings just yet, but I do want to hit the high points (in no particular order). One thing to keep in mind is that the scenario designer has a lot of flexibility when it comes to what a specific building will be like. So anything in the following list that hints at choices means a choice for the scenario designer.

1. Many stories (levels) now possible. I don't know what the limit will be, but we'll probably cap it at 6. Anything above that is problematic and quite useless from a game standpoint. These will be directly simulated, not abstracted.

2. Roof tops can be used if there is access to them.

3. Basements are an option for a building now. If I get my way there will be two types... one that has windows and one that does not. Up to Charles.

4. Stairs are directly simulated. However, stairs are somewhat abstracted still. There is somewhat of a choice about where to locate them.

5. Interior rooms are abstractly simulated. There is a choice about how this is simulated.

6. Buildings are deformable. Yes, this means specific, individual walls can be damaged. Not quite sure how far we'll be able to take structural failures in the first game. Buildings in general are something we expect to improve from title to title (especially because of the hardware issues).

7. Windows and doors are directly simulated. Walls can have either doors, windows, doors and windows, or nothing at all. This affects entry/exit possibilities as well as fighting positions.

8. Mouseholing is now possible.

9. Building variety, in terms of shape and size, is pretty much up to the scenario designer. Want buildings all mashed together with doors and windows on the same sides? Done. Want buildings that are long and short next to ones that are tall and skinny? No problem.

10. Buildings can now be placed on two different axis... 90deg and 45deg. We had wanted to make it four different axis (90, 22.5, 45, and 67.5) but Charles nearly had a stroke when we talked about this. His last words before passing out were "dude... you're insane! Do you know how much code and computer power that would take?!?". Then there was silence over the phone and later I could hear his wife giving Charles' jar an emergency boost from one WineCape's best bottles of vino. With his ability to think restored I promised to never mention it again (well, at least until the second game)

11. Surrounding terrain can now be pressed right up against a building, or extremely near to it (depending on circumstances). This means you can have small alleyways, streets right in front, trees right next to, etc.

12. With the 1m x 1m terrain mesh underlying the terrain, there should be no major problems with putting buildings on slopes. Not quite sure if it is a foolproof thing, but hopefully it is.

Building texture variety -> yes, we are planning on a lot more variety of textures. Mind you there is a VRAM consideration, but otherwise there is a lot more flexibility than CMx1. More stuff might happen but I don't want to say until coding is done.

Building shape variety -> we do want there to be the ability to have more specific buildings for different scenarios. However, keep in mind that with the narrower focus there is less need. There won't be a single CMx2 game that simulates structures from the plains of central Russia, the villages of Hungary, and the urban areas of Germany. Instead the game would focus on one particular region and therefore not require the variety previous CMx1 games needed. In fact, this is one of the reasons we changed to narrower settings rather than broad.

Building entry/exit -> designer can decide which side the door is on, or if it is there at all. Same with windows. Can also determine other details I don't want to get into right now. Just imagine the CMx1 system, nuke it, then imagine what you want. What you want is probably a lot closer to what CMx2 is capable of.

Interior parts of buildings

Interior stuff, such as furnishings, debris, doors, walls, etc. are handled abstractly. Again, more settings for the scenario designer to play with. However, sometimes internal walls and doors are simulated directly. Depends on how scenario designers want do it.

You can put two building right up against each other. Set the common walls to have doors and bingo... a way to get from one building to the other without going outside or blowing a hole in the wall. Put a 2 story building adjacent to a 3 story building, give the 2 story a flat roof and the 3 story a door on the common side on the 3rd floor. Now your guys can walk out onto the roof of the 2 story building.

I could go on and on about the possibilities now, but I think you guys get the drift... urban warfare is going to be a whole new experience in CMx2. Personally I feel that CMx1 did a better job with buildings than most, but CMx2 will likely be better than any other game out there. And I am including FPS games as well.

The only downside, besides the more involved scenario making, is that there will be a bit of a generic feel to the buildings from a graphical standpoint. Far less generic than CMx1 for sure, but not as rich as something like BF2. But then you have to consider that other game's maps are hand built, limited in size and scope, and often don't allow units to enter them... so like everything in life, there are tradeoffs.

Generic vs. Abstract - windows and doors are generic, but they are not abstract. This means there is a window at such and such a height with such and such a size positioned in this or that spot. That is direct and not abstract. The generic issue comes in that all windows will be that size and relatively positioned whenever windows are present. You won't get narrow windows on one building and big plate glass windows on another.

At least not in terms of the size and position, the graphics are a different story as they can be customized for the building wall texture underneath. This set in stone, applicable to all, dimensional modeling is what is used for LOS, LOF, and movement rules. There might be other abstractions associated with windows/doors, but they are based on top of the underlying system just described.

….one of the advantages of going with narrower subject matter is we don't get into the problems of "we need a house that works as well for central Europe as it does for Western Russia and Germany too" problem. Now we can simply make one set of models and textures that work with a specific area without worrying about others. In that way buildings will look a lot less generic in CMx2 compared to CMx1.

However, when I said there will be a more generic feel to the buildings I meant vs. games like BF2 or any number of other eye candy games that are out there. We can't compete with the visuals that come from a limited number of hand made buildings made by companies whose art budget is probably more than we made off of all the CMx1 games combined. These games are going towards $20,000,000 a title now... and most of that is art.

[Peter Cairns]

Wicky,

Thanks for that it was a while since I read it, but the issue is, if possible would a component system not be better, ie building it wall by wall rather than having them pre determined, as it would give more flexibility in design.

Even if we could just do it for levels, ie in the shops and home sexample, have Retail commercial for the ground floor, and residential for the three floors above that.

Different buildings gives us horizontal diversity, but not vertical.

Peter.

[Bruce70]

I think its better to have a modular system where the modules are rooms or multiple rooms, rather than a modular system where the modules are walls. Why? Because the cost would outweigh the benifit. Even though the benefit might be great in some cases, these cases would be very rare.

[Cpl Steiner]

I am still intrigued as to how 1:1 representation will work with buildings.

As we all know, you can only command groups of men, such as squads and fireteams. However, each man is represented by an individual model.

As windows and doors are not abstracted, each man will presumably have to find a LOS out of the building to the enemy. I imagine part of your skill as a commander in CM:SF will be deciding how many men to put into a floor of a building. You want everyone to have a window to cover but don't want too many men in the building as they won't be able to fight due to the shortage of decent fighting positions. Similarly, too few men in a building could leave windows and doors dangerously unguarded.

As windows and doors are not abstracted I imagine soldiers will have to physically move through these appertures in CM:SDF. I can't wait to see a squad stack up outside a building then storm in through the front door!

[aka_tom_w]

Why is it that the only thing I can think of to add to this thread is:

"People who live in glass buildings shouldn't points their weapons."

Sorry

just being silly

carry on

-tom

[MikeyD]

Someone recently on the CMBB discussion site was complaining that his tank got nailed despite the fact that he was well behind a factory wall. No chance at all of being in LOS from his position. Still, he bought the farm. That's what a building with lots of 'abstracted' windows will do to yah!

I was lobbying for lots of building types earlier. BFC's response was the word 'modular'.

[Cpl Steiner]

The whole issue of windows and doors not being abstract in CM:SF (as compared with their treatment in CMx1) plus 1:1 representation opens up a massive can of worms, which I only hope Battlefront don't sidestep. If they succeed in overcoming these issues, we will have in our hands the best urban combat game to date.

For instance, grenades cannot magically pass through building walls as in CMx1. They will have to be aimed at windows and open doorways, with the possibility of missing the aperture. If they miss, this could and should present a danger to friendly troops attacking the building.

There is also the issue of doors being open or closed, and to a lesser degree, windows being open or shuttered. Will we see troops moving up to a doorway, forcing entry, and grenading the room beyond?

Also, due to 1:1 representation, soldiers near to a grenade that has just been hurled through a window should take appropriate action. Maybe they will be seen to run out the back door, only to be cut down by soldiers guarding the exits. Using grenades to force enemy out into the street is a legitimate tactic in real life and so needs to be in the game if 1:1 representation means anything at all.

[Peter Cairns]

With things like factories that can take damage but which are mostly empty, will you be able to look through them and see things on the other side....

It could be that an abstraction of that in CMBB could be why you could hit a tank which appeared total hidden, as it was assumed that you could sometimes see through parts of factories.

Peter.

[Moronic Max]

8. Mouseholing is now possible

So...what's mouseholing? Keyholing in a building?

[C'Rogers]

So...what's mouseholing? Keyholing in a building?

I had to ask this a while back as well.

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=000573;p=1#000000

John D. Salt provided the answer of ...

"moseholing is when you make a hole in a wall to move from room to room without having to go out into the street."

Though it is debated in the thread (among other topics)

[Sergei]

What I WANT is full compatibility with Sims 2, so you can have Ahmed move into the house with his family and decorate it with furniture.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

i second Sergei's request.

[FAI]

Don't give Charles a real stroke, will ya.... I still want to play this game in my lifetime, ya know.

[C'Rogers]

Hmmm, my fiance could build a nice Sims neighborhood to serve as the next battleground (alright alright ... I play the Sims as well, I would help).

And just think of all the options when the modules are out. You could have Syrian, British, American, and so on. And then mod that with CMC and you can have the occasional mass neighborhood war.

Obviously this must be done. The only real question is should the US Marines bunk with the other American forces, or are they goning to take off and form their own camp.

[aka_tom_w]

Sim City and The Sims and Electronic Arts or Maxis or who ever owns that franchise now, should be contacted and licesensed to provide, the requisite (and EVER popular) "civilians" for the next CM WW II title.

CMx2 WWII meets SimCity and the Sims 2 for FULL blown inclusion and modeling of civilians in the next game!

Bring it on!

-tom w

[Cpl Steiner]

When one thinks of how many soldiers are going to be modelled in "Histwar: Les Grognards", I don't think it will be long before large numbers of civilians will be doable in CMx2. I'll leave it at that though as I know there are a few very vigorous opponents of CMx2 having civilians.

[Colin]

I don't want to have to place walls in the editor. I also don't want to have to aim at individual windows. Thats what AI is for.

This is the stuff the BFC is good at guys. Let em do it.

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by Colin:

I don't want to have to place walls in the editor. I also don't want to have to aim at individual windows. Thats what AI is for.

This is the stuff the BFC is good at guys. Let em do it.

From the Synopsis sticky, I think you will have to decide whether walls have windows and/or doors, and if so, how many (see below).

Building entry/exit -> designer can decide which side the door is on, or if it is there at all. Same with windows. Can also determine other details I don't want to get into right now. Just imagine the CMx1 system, nuke it, then imagine what you want. What you want is probably a lot closer to what CMx2 is capable of.

I too hope that the AI will cope with all the implications of non-abstracted building apertures and 1:1 representation. I was just saying that I think it will have a tough time doing so.

[C'Rogers]

From the Synopsis sticky, I think you will have to decide whether walls have windows and/or doors, and if so, how many (see below).

[Cpl Steiner]

C'Rogers,

You have a point. Let's hope windows and doors are things you have the option of "changing" rather than "adding", so that you can stick with the pre-generated or default configuration ones for most buildings you don't really care about.