Cpl Steiner Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Hi, I am interested to know how many Amtracs are in a USMC rifle platoon? I believe each Amtrac can carry 24 fully equipped marines. However, I believe a USMC rifle squad is 13 men. I get the impression from reading various books such as "Ambush Alley" and "No True Glory" however, that up to 30 marines are sometimes crammed into an Amtrac. This is all very hard to sort out in my head. I am assuming that each platoon consists of 3 rifle squads of 13 men each and an HQ of about 3 men, making something like 42 men. If this is the case then the whole platoon could fit inside just two Amtracs but it would require one squad to detach a fireteam. Any thoughts? [EDIT] Below is my guess of the TO&E of a fully mounted USMC platoon based on the above conjecture: 1st Vehicle (AAVP-7A1 "Amtrac"): 1st Squad (13 men) 1 fireteam plus squad leader of 3rd Squad (5 men) Platoon HQ (3 men) Total passengers: 21. 2nd Vehicle (AAVP-7A1 "Amtrac"): 2nd Squad (13 men) 2 fireteams of 3rd Squad (8 men) Total passengers: 21. [ November 07, 2007, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: Cpl Steiner ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Originally posted by Cpl Steiner: I believe each Amtrac can carry 24 fully equipped marines.Well, this certainly catches my interest. This capability is really something I have not yet seen in a wargame. I am sure that this also has a lot of consequences with respect to tactics: one will loose a lot of troops if one of those is hit. Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 Originally posted by Rollstoy: Well, this certainly catches my interest. This capability is really something I have not yet seen in a wargame. I am sure that this also has a lot of consequences with respect to tactics: one will loose a lot of troops if one of those is hit.From my readings the Amtrac is truly a massive lumbering beast! Here are the dimensions of the Stryker compared to the Amtrac (from Wikipedia): ----------------Length(m)----------Width(m)-------Height(m)-------Weight(t) Stryker-----------6.95----------------2.72--------------2.64-------------16.47 Amtrac-----------7.94----------------3.27--------------3.26-------------22.80 Compared to the Stryker, the Amtrac is thus (approximately) 1m longer, 0.5m wider, 0.5m higher, and 50% heavier. It should be noticeably bigger than the Stryker in game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 I thought I should add that Navy personnel are the ones that crew each Amtrac, not USMC personnel. In some ways then, an Amtrac is more like a boat used to transport the marines about rather than a true ICV integrated with the platoon. Given that this is the case, maybe the USMC module for CM:SF should have a separate TO&E for the USMC and the US Navy. For a given scenario, you would "purchase" your USMC rifle platoons from one TO&E and the Amtracs from another "Naval" TO&E. The question would then be how many Amtracs there are per Amtrac HQ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Hmmm, Multiplying the dimensions Cpl Steiner gave us from Wikipedia give a VERY rough approximation of the volume of the Stryker and Amtrac. Stryker: 49.9 m^3 Amtrac: 84.6 m^3 Hence, the Amtrac has almost 70% more additional volume. Couple that with the Navy's propensity to stack men tightly in a confined place (no buggery jokes!) and you could easily cram a lot of Marines into an Amtrac. Enjoy, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 Time for a nice pic. By the way, to my eyes it actually looks shorter than a Stryker rather than 1m longer. Does anyone else get that impression? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Originally posted by Cpl Steiner: I thought I should add that Navy personnel are the ones that crew each Amtrac, not USMC personnel. In some ways then, an Amtrac is more like a boat used to transport the marines about rather than a true ICV integrated with the platoon. Given that this is the case, maybe the USMC module for CM:SF should have a separate TO&E for the USMC and the US Navy. For a given scenario, you would "purchase" your USMC rifle platoons from one TO&E and the Amtracs from another "Naval" TO&E. The question would then be how many Amtracs there are per Amtrac HQ? Excuses me but where are you getting your information that the "Navy" of all people is manning the Amtracs? I'm looking at the current TO&E dated 2007 for an AAV Company and I don't see any where in it "Navy" people. Could you state where your getting your information? JohnO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f-bomb Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 the only thing the navy has to do with amtracs is the corpman inside attatched to the marines, and the ships giving the amtracs a ride. this coming from first had exp!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 Originally posted by f-bomb: the only thing the navy has to do with amtracs is the corpman inside attatched to the marines, and the ships giving the amtracs a ride. this coming from first had exp!!! f-bomb, I think the cause of my confusion is this passage from "Ambush Alley" (Tim Pritchard, 2005): "Driving the AAV was the lanky tracker, Lance Corporal Edward Castleberry. In the AAV commander's hatch was another tracker, Sergeant William Schaefer. The trackers, from the 2nd Assault Amphibian Battalion headquartered at Courthouse Bay, Camp Lejeune, were a breed apart. Their job was to drive and maintain the AAVs and to work the tracks' up guns, the 40 mm Mark 19 grenade launcher and the .50-caliber heavy machine gun. There was some rivalry between the two groups. The infantrymen thought of themselves as the heart and soul of the Marine Corps and considered the trackers a mere appendage. The trackers thought the grunts were arrogant and cocky. At Camp Lejeune, the two groups never mixed much, but in Kuwait, Robinson had gotten to know Castleberry and liked the guy." Presumably then, the trackers are from a different unit to the grunts but they are all Marines. I apologies for any slur on the Corps! I also got the number of Amtracs per Marine company from this book just now. It is 12. I guess that makes it 3 or 4 per platoon plus a couple of company command vehicles. If the trackers really are from a different unit to the grunts, even if it isn't the Navy, are they permanently attached to each platoon, or would they be best placed in the TO&E as a kind of transport group like for the Uncons? [ November 07, 2007, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Cpl Steiner ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Cpl Steiner, I could send to you the current TO&E for any Marine question that you may have. JohnO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 Originally posted by JohnO: I could send to you the current TO&E for any Marine question that you may have.I would very much appreciate that John. I've updated my profile to make my email address visible to forum members. Cheers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Will send them tonight after work. here is a list of the TO&E's that I have that i can send to you, LAR Co Rifle Co AAV Co Weapons Co Tank Co others you will have to ask. JohnO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 JohnO, The ones you list are plenty. I will check my email later. Thanks once again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 JohnO Could you email me those as well? Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 LVTs are assigned to unique units unto themselves and then assigned to infantry units as attached personnel. The LVTs are crewed by personnel of their own parent unit, and the grunts inside are just passengers. I do not believe that the LVT was designed as an APC or ICV, but its all the Marine Corps has to get its infantry into action other than by chopper. The second gulf war was basically a thrust up highways from Kuwait to Baghdad. Only Marine Recon units had LAVS, and verical envelopment was not a tactic of choice, so the Marines had to ride up in their LVTS and Hummers, or they would have to walk. To answer your question, you would have to specify the type of platoon you are referring to, i.e, an infantry platoon...an engineer platoon, a tank platoon etc. All of these units are seperately organized and then combined as needed into a BLT (Battalion Landing Team) an MEu (Marine Expeditionary Unit) or some other specialized higher organization. Here is a list and link to every unit in the US Marine Corps. [ November 07, 2007, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Nidan1 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Hi Nidan1, I agree on every thing you posted except for one thing, LVT In 1985 the Marine Corps changed the designation of the LVTP7Al to AAV7Al -- amphibious assault vehicle -- representing a shift in emphasis away from the long-time LVT designation, meaning "landing vehicle, tracked." Without a change of a bolt or plate, the AAV7Al was to be more of an armored personnel carrier and less of a landing vehicle. JohnO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Originally posted by JohnO: Hi Nidan1, I agree on every thing you posted except for one thing, LVT In 1985 the Marine Corps changed the designation of the LVTP7Al to AAV7Al -- amphibious assault vehicle -- representing a shift in emphasis away from the long-time LVT designation, meaning "landing vehicle, tracked." Without a change of a bolt or plate, the AAV7Al was to be more of an armored personnel carrier and less of a landing vehicle. JohnO Sorry, that's "Old Corps" terminology coming out. In my day, all the Amtrac did was take us from ship to shore, things were different then. You have to admit though that the use of an AAV as an amored personnel carrier has been disappointing at best, and that is probably an understatement, but improvisation is always a hallmark of the Corps, whether or not the improvisation saves lives. Sometimes it just boils down to a matter of cost unfortunately. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Admit it Nidan, you were in the Corps when they were climbing up the mast to shoot down on enemy gundecks. Weren't you in that pub when they started the whole thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Get it right, doggie, it was a tavern not a pub 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 I knew it involved a lot of drinking and clouded judgement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Uncle Sam's Misguided Children 232 years of tradition, un-hampered by progress. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Originally posted by Cpl Steiner: I thought I should add that Navy personnel are the ones that crew each Amtrac, not USMC personnel. Wrong. The AAV battalions are purely Marine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Originally posted by Cpl Steiner: Presumably then, the trackers are from a different unit to the grunts but they are all Marines. I apologies for any slur on the Corps! A Marine grunt company has no organic transport. Amtracs come from the AAV battalions (Used to be one battalion per division) and trucks and such from the battalion motor pool 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Originally posted by Nidan1: Uncle Sam's Misguided Children 232 years of tradition, un-hampered by progress. Nidan1... how much progress do you need beyond sight alignment, sight picture, steady squeeze? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Control your breathing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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