2 TacAI problems

[Tuomio]

1. When target command is given to Bradley, it will fire both TOW tubes empty regardles if the clear target command is given. Only exception seems to be, that the target gets destroyed with first TOW (Building collapsed, vehicle dead etc.). If target is switched, the second TOW is still fired.

2.M1 Abrams refuse to use main gun when target is soft target, or when using area fire, AND the target is not in the building. For instance, ATGM in trench was able to dominate 4 Abrams tanks, because they let the situation drag on by using only MG fire. The enemy was being spotted by them with no effect. Maybe the commander is fiscally responsible for ordinance usage now?

Side-note: My troops and enemy troops do not suffer from morale penalties and the cover bonus against high calibers is extremely high now. Rattled troops can be given orders with no visual penalties.

For example: One Syrian Special Force unit dominated my assault into town, because 2 Abrams tanks were not able to suppress them with area fire on their floor. They did get killed eventually, one by one, slowly. In the meanwhile they slaughtered all incoming soft waves, unlikely when you are receiving 120mm HE in your face. I would like to see those walls go down more easily, theyre not reinforced concrete.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

#2 seems odd to me. I've definitely seen Abrams use their main gun on area fire at least, if not soft targets. What version are you using?

[the Fighting Seabee]

A feature that everyone has been begging for is being able to control what weapon the unit uses. It would be nice to tell a squad to use the at4 in some instances, or just a javelin. It would also be nice to be able to tell a tank to use the main gun or just the mg. This feature was implemented in CMx1. But who the hell knows if it's on battlefronts "long list of things to implement".

[Secondbrooks]

Not using main gun with target-order? Haven't noticed that, they always shot enemy in trench, building or open with their main guns in my games. As long as i issue them target-orders.

v1.06 presented very high moraleboost for men in buildings. I haven't desided is it bad or not. You could think that their moraleboost is justificated, because they are fighting in "fightingposition". Like one would order humanwave against bunker, i would expect similar results when ordering platoon of infantry chraging against house which is occupied by enemy -> slaughter.

Another thing is that Area fire into building is atleast shown to be pointtarget in which all hits goes to same spot in wall, so if noone is in that section of wall then there will be almost zero effect from fire.

It's bit too much of micromanagement to issue target-orders to tanks and stuff when you want them to have proper effect on enemy with big guns. But right now that is the only effective way to make use of firepower enough heavy and effective.

[c3k]

Count me in for the option of telling the unit which weapon to use.

Usually the TacAI would be fine. But in some circumstances, already described above, I would like more control. As if I were the platoon commander and could say, "Soldier! Fire that rocket into that house." Instead, now I have to say, "Unit, using hidden self-deterministic algorithms attempt to target that spot."

Thanks,

Ken

[Tuomio]

The enemy was presented in "Reverse Slope" conditions (in trench). This did not hinder the ability to target them. But the more cover enemy has, the more likely it should be that bigger guns are used. I tried to area fire the surrounding terrain, but again i was not able to get them shooting the big guns.

We already have 2 separate commands for firing, "Target" and "Target light". If i order any unit to fire with "Target light", naturally it should be MG and similars only. With "Target" command i expect that all assets are used, ESPECIALLY with Area Fire command.

This is how it works with infarantry, area fire with target command and they will use every asset they have. IMO its good that we dont get too precise control over the actual weapons, but Target Light = MG and Target = MG is not very logical.

Buildings can hardly be counted as reinforced fighting positions. Morale boost or not, even the most fanatic troops should pin down when direct 120mm HE shells are fired at them. When this kind of ammunition explodes within the building, the blast wave will be horrific. Internal walls would blow out etc. If Main Tanks can't pin enemy behind few bricks, then what can? Buildings are now like reinforced bunkers.

Even the 20mm bradley gun would get the enemy thinking twice. Those calibers will eat you physically and mentally if the "cover" you are behind is getting 4cm holes in it two times per second. Its like standing in the open, but in the open you would not get brick shrapnels in your eyes.

Thats why higher levels (non-keyholed positions) in the buildings should be for spotting only. They are not reinforced and thus trying to play them as bunkers would be the worst idea since human wave over steppe.

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Darkmage]

Tuomio I've just experienced the 1st thing you mentioned with bradleys firing both their TOWs. I found if you quickly clear target and issue a small move order then this stops the 2nd TOW being fired. Not ideal I know but it is a work around.

[SgtMuhammed]

If you use the "target light" command with the Bradleys they should refrain from firing their missiles. The regular target command assumes that you want them to take out whatever they are aiming at so they will use whatever they have available.

[Big Poppa Pump]

I'd like also to see a "target heavy" command. Occasionally I'd like to hold small arms fire and unload a javelin or two at a position.

[Secondbrooks]

Originally posted by Tuomio:

Buildings can hardly be counted as reinforced fighting positions. Morale boost or not, even the most fanatic troops should pin down when direct 120mm HE shells are fired at them. When this kind of ammunition explodes within the building, the blast wave will be horrific. Internal walls would blow out etc. If Main Tanks can't pin enemy behind few bricks, then what can? Buildings are now like reinforced bunkers.

Even the 20mm bradley gun would get the enemy thinking twice. Those calibers will eat you physically and mentally if the "cover" you are behind is getting 4cm holes in it two times per second. Its like standing in the open, but in the open you would not get brick shrapnels in your eyes.

Thats why higher levels (non-keyholed positions) in the buildings should be for spotting only. They are not reinforced and thus trying to play them as bunkers would be the worst idea since human wave over steppe.

Yup. But in your example they didn't fire HE, or did i misread that part? And if they would have done that it would have wiped about half squad out... Today i fired Syrians with my 120mm and yes they were pretty unwilling to fight for few minutes after that (if someone lives)

And in CMSF they are shooting at one spot of building, they are not covering whole wall with their fire, if this is not abstracted but it seems that it is not. If you happen to be in other room your safe (if fragments can't pierce walls). Mental issues are another thing, bit then again 40mm grenades usually does pin enemy down in CMSF.

1st floor, 7th floor, foxhole or bunker it doesn't matter. Other has cover+concealment while other does not. This is ofcourse raw simplicity (your situation which you explained is unknown to me).

To sum it up what i'm after, is this:

Supporting tanks firing with MG at one room of building, while opponents are in other rooms of building, while infantry advances across sandfield or dry ground relying on firesupport from tanks = Not very bright situation for charging infantry.

Like said i don't remember that my tanks would have failed me even once with their cannon usage when i wanted them to use it. Ofcourse it's possible that they have failed me.

But yes sometimes it seems that smallarms fire can't penetrate walls very well, it can be abstracted, but to my understandment bullets and their flight path should have be both drawed to screen and calculated. But then again in-side of buildings are abstracted and forexample rooms are not drawn to screen.

[ March 02, 2008, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Secondbrooks ]

[Tuomio]

Secondbrooks, the morale issue was with Abrams HE fire against building, which had Syrian special forces in it. They were on the second floor. They stopped firing for second or two when shell hit the wall, but were quickly back at the task (SF guys). It took several volleys from 2 abrams tanks to silence them. They all died, thats why they stopped. They didn't stop/cease because they were under lethal barrage. I bet their morale was very low, but still they were shooting targets with full effect. I know CMSF has very elaborate morale/pin down system in place, i just wonder why its effects are so subtle now. Its like their reactions is On/Off, full capacity / incapacitated.

Because automatic rifles are so lethal in close combat, its even more important to deny your enemies ability to shoot back. Much more than in CMx1, where it was common practice to pin down troops. I see much less of that stuff i CMSF, it needs tweaking.

[Secondbrooks]

Sounds quite hard-skinned SF-blokes indeed.

Yeah. It's true that there seems to be always some tough guy who shoots back while most are already sucking their thumbs on floor, no matter how hard the suppression is...

Then again this is something what i've read from history: Some blokes are so cold-blooded that they can keep on shooting in situations when rest of squad/platoon are already looking routes which they would use to escape from storm of shells and bullets. These kind tough guys armed with SMG (with 70 bullet's drums, naturally) or "LMG" and plenty of magazines could halt platoon or even more during ww2.

Maybe we have samekind tough guys modelled in CMSF? Hmm... Could i assign AT-weapons to these guys in the future versions?

Well that is my 0.2 euros.

[dan/california]

I would have to state that my experience with firing HE into buildings is that suppression may vary but it kills enough of them that it doesn't matter. This is with one shell per game standard building square. :cool:

My first line new area fire technique is to fire at the middle floor of a three story building with 105mm+ HE. It seems to render the bad guys more or less combat ineffective on all three floors.

I tried this for my rerun of Ash Shammas(spelling?) in the TF Thunder campaign for 1.07 and went from enormous casualties on my own side too virtually none. It was orders of magnitude more effective in than anything else that I have tried This was with 105 mm HE. I have not tried it as intensively with 120mm HEDP but assume it would be similar.

120mm mortars also seem to throughly smash troops in buildings up to three stories high but are markedly less effective as the buildings get taller and the shells don't penetrate all the way down. which wouldn't be a bad thing to keep in mind when designing scenarios now that I think about it.