Rhino PAK (Protective Armor Kit) on Mail Call tonight (Hist Chan U.S.)

[John Kettler]

Those of you in the PST time zone may be able to catch the rebroadcast after midnight here. The Rhino PAK is a field installable by 4 mechanics 2000

lb. ballistic steel and bulletproof transparency kit that puts 1/4 inch armor on unarmored Hummers. Covers entire crew compartment, bottom and top of vehicle. Not sure about the hood proper, but the engine compartment has a substantial plate in front of it. What's great about this is that no suspension upgrades or steering changes are required, since the armor lies well within the vehicle's original design specs. The armor was demonstrated under what I presume was AK-47 ball ammo fire at spitting distance, but geometry wasn't even close to perpendicular. No penetrations of either vehicle body or transparencies noted.

Regards,

John Kettler

[tiny_tanker]

Speaking of the suspension, I saw an up-armored HMMWV lose the front suspension while going about 50mph on a convoy, surprised us all the see it veer off the road towards some trees! I don't think the occupants enjoyed the ride much either. This makes me wonder if the added weight combined with constant operation isn't taking its toll, and might cause an increase in accidents in the near feature.

[MiB]

Its a little ridiculous, those things weren't designed to be crude APCs.

[Nicoch]

Maybe not, but can you really blame the men for wanting them to be armored when there's rarely any way to predict when and where they're going to be shot at over there? They can't be in a stryker or a bradley 24/7.

[tiny_tanker]

Maybe we should invest in more M1117's they seem beefy enough to take on the punishment and are made to add armor too, also they have the V shaped hull for mines and IED's.

[FAI]

Originally posted by MiB:

Its a little ridiculous, those things weren't designed to be crude APCs.

Makes me wonder how men with bolt action rifles and no armor at all can subjugate half of the world and not complained when the locals took potshots at them...

[MikeyD]

U.S. has had a long career with gun trucks. Bolt-on armor kits for trucks in Vietnam were a very common sight - and forget about stopping an AK round, those mostly weren't more than 8-9m thick, about the same as an old white half track side! I recall reading some old bolt-together truck armor kits were pulled out of mothballs and used by patroling U.S. units in Haiti in the 90s.

M1114 was rushed foward to fill an armor gap that became apparent in Somalia. The Army basically had very little spanning the gap between kevlar doored partol humvees and a Bradley juggernaut! Before the war company promo material said the M1114 was proof again AK fire from 100m. Since 2003 you can see that door armor getting thicker and thicker. What's the latest upgrade, "Frag Kit #5" I think. Some 8,000 new replacement doors for all M1114s being manufactured. There aren't many news reports about how many suspension upgrades the poor armored humvee's had to go through in the last 4 years. But hey, that's what armored vehicles 'do' - they break their suspension. Strykers, Abrams, Pattons, Centurions. Beat on 'em enough and they aaaall break their suspension.

[John Kettler]

I think we should take a serious look at the LIMBC

(Light Infantry Military Blast Cushion) invented by Canadian Troy Hurtubise.

http://www.baytoday.ca/content/news/details.asp?c=3303

Still looking for the video!

Regards,

John Kettler

[luderbamsen]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

I think we should take a serious look at the LIMBC

(Light Infantry Military Blast Cushion) invented by Canadian Troy Hurtubise.

http://www.baytoday.ca/content/news/details.asp?c=3303

Still looking for the video!

Regards,

John Kettler

I think the words "Serious" and "Troy Hurtubise" don't go well together. "Well-meaning loon" and "Troy Hurtubise" would be more appropriate, IMO.

[Splinty]

Originally posted by tiny_tanker:

Maybe we should invest in more M1117's they seem beefy enough to take on the punishment and are made to add armor too, also they have the V shaped hull for mines and IED's.

Unfortunately M1117s can't stop EFPs any better than M1114s. Both vehicles can handle conventional IEDs pretty well, but even the MEXAS tiles on the M1117 can't stop that copper slug. The other problem with M1117s is the turret weapons can't depress far enough to cover the vehicle's own 6 O'clock inside a few dozen meters.

[tiny_tanker]

What will stop an EFP? They should go through the side of an M1 pretty well to if I'm not mistaken. But an M1117 would at least provide better protection and be easier to upgrade.

[John Kettler]

luderbamsen,

Considering that I've interviewed this man for several hours, have talked at length with a reporter who's been looking at the inventor's work for over a year, daily for extended periods during seed germination tests, and that the Discovery Channel prominently featured several demos of the man testing his own products with himself as guinea pig, to include being rammed by a small pickup at 35 mph(?) while wearing the Ursus suit and shielding his own head with Fire Paste against the searing heat of an oxyacetylene torch, forgive me if I don't stampede and join you in proclaiming him a "loon." If he's a loon, why is Canada letting him equip Canadian units in Afghanistan with the LIMBC, and why would the USMC let him field test his product in combat--using live Marines?

Regards,

John Kettler

[luderbamsen]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

luderbamsen,

Considering that I've interviewed this man for several hours, have talked at length with a reporter who's been looking at the inventor's work for over a year, daily for extended periods during seed germination tests, and that the Discovery Channel prominently featured several demos of the man testing his own products with himself as guinea pig, to include being rammed by a small pickup at 35 mph(?) while wearing the Ursus suit and shielding his own head with Fire Paste against the searing heat of an oxyacetylene torch, forgive me if I don't stampede and join you in proclaiming him a "loon." If he's a loon, why is Canada letting him equip Canadian units in Afghanistan with the LIMBC, and why would the USMC let him field test his product in combat--using live Marines?

Regards,

John Kettler

OK, since you're so keen on evidence. Linkys to Canadian and USMC tests please. Evidence that he's a well-meaning loon?

And why would anyone test to see if his inventionas had merit? Because during WW2 some boffin told the RAF that he could blow up German dams with a round (later changed to cylindrical) bomb that would spin, skip across the water and roll down along the dam wall. It was one of the daftest ideas I've ever heard of. And it worked like a charm.

Oh and BTW, getting hit by a truck isn't quite the same thing as being eaten by a bear.

[SgtMuhammed]

What if the bear is driving a truck?

[Nicoch]

Originally posted by SgtMuhammed:

What if the bear is driving a truck?

The world must know the answer to this.

[John Kettler]

luderbamsen,

Shall come back to your link later, but for now, I should merely suggest that you watch some nature footage of what bears do when vexed. They charge!

A typical grizzly bear (weight range 400-1500 lbs)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_bear

weighs a good deal less than

the aforementioned pickup truck (my tiny Festiva hatchback weighs 1350 lbs. empty), thus Troy Hurtubise is surviving far more than the typical charge of a grizzly bear. The suit's called Ursus (bear) because it was specifically designed to allow a trained bear researcher (Hurtubise) to literally walk into a cave with bears which may or may not be fully hibernating, collect biological samples (hibernation chemistry not understood yet) and survive an attack from a bear or bears not happy with cave visitors following a needle stick

or other encounter.

Regards,

John Kettler

[luderbamsen]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

luderbamsen,

Shall come back to your link later, but for now, I should merely suggest that you watch some nature footage of what bears do when vexed. They charge!

A typical grizzly bear (weight range 400-1500 lbs)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_bear

weighs a good deal less than

the aforementioned pickup truck (my tiny Festiva hatchback weighs 1350 lbs. empty), thus Troy Hurtubise is surviving far more than the typical charge of a grizzly bear. The suit's called Ursus (bear) because it was specifically designed to allow a trained bear researcher (Hurtubise) to literally walk into a cave with bears which may or may not be fully hibernating, collect biological samples (hibernation chemistry not understood yet) and survive an attack from a bear or bears not happy with cave visitors following a needle stick

or other encounter.

Regards,

John Kettler

Never mind the friggin' bear suit. If anyone wants to try out for themselves if a padded chain mail armor can keep a grizzly off their flesh and bones, be my guest. I prefer the tried-and-true method of staying away from bear country. And if the bear has fun picking the oddly stuffed human apart, then good for him.

Back on topic:

Originally posted by John Kettler:

why is Canada letting him equip Canadian units in Afghanistan with the LIMBC, and why would the USMC let him field test his product in combat--using live Marines?

Regards,

John Kettler

Linkys or it didn't happen, please.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[John Kettler]

luderbamsen,

Here's a link to the planned firing tests reported in the earlier article.

http://www.baytoday.ca/content/news/details.asp?c=3796

And here's the link to the 15 captioned photos accompanying the article. From these you can clearly see the staggering difference between what happens when projectiles are fired at or explosives detonated on unprotected car doors, as opposed to those fitted with LIMBC protection.

http://tinyurl.com/2z2e4d

Concerning the links you want for the Marines and Canadian Forces using the LIMBC, I'll see what I can come up with. It wouldn't surprise me, though, given the deep inherent conservatism in professional military circles, if someone intervened and stopped the plans described. After all, the Union Army could've been armed with repeating rifles, had the Army guy in charge not rejected them out of hand because of what he perceived would be impossible ammo production demands! Lots of other examples are pretty easy to come by.

In a separate note, I need to correct a from memory error I made regarding Fire Paste. He used a blowtorch, NOT the oxyacetylene torch I erroneously mentioned. This picture clearly shows

the inventor's confidence in his product.

http://www.americanantigravity.com/graphics/hurtubise/blastcushions/troyburnresized_320.jpg

Here is a video (click Fighting fire with fact) which shows a series of attention getting Fire Paste demonstrations, together with some scientific insights as to what's in it and how it does what it does. Recall, too, that the LIMBC is built around the melding of Fire Paste, Kevlar, and some other items.

http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=8/31/2004#

Regards,

John Kettler

[ December 05, 2007, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[luderbamsen]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

luderbamsen,

Here's a link to the planned firing tests reported in the earlier article.

e.c.t.

Regards,

John Kettler

*sigh*

Yes, these initial tests do indeed look interesting, and I'm not surprised that the Army sent a representative to have a look. If it works (i.e. cheap and effective armor) I'll be the first to demand the stuff be put to use and Troy be made a gazillionaire, and probably canonized as well.

But...

Blasting a few old car doors does not a comprehensive military test make, as you of course very well know.

And of course Mr. Hurtubise immediately makes sure we all understand that he isn't firing on all four cylinders by claiming that the pads would have prevented the collapse of the WTC...

As I said, a well-meaning loon.