Anti-Personnel Rockets and Missiles

[Cpl Steiner]

I have read on this forum that lots of RPG rounds don't have much effect on US vehicles in Iraq because they are the anti-personnel type rather than the anti-armour type. I had not been aware that different types of RPG warhead were available before this.

Can anyone tell me, will the US side have similar ammo differences for it's rocket and missile systems, such as Javelin?

[MikeyD]

Here's an old thread on U.S. recoilless/rocket weapons. In it there's a picture of what looks like a Marine SMAW HE (anti-personnel?) warhead, compared to the HEAT version. I believe (though I'm not sure) the AT-4 LAW also has two types of warhead. I even read reports about development of a TOW HE warhead retrofit, but I haven't heard if it was fielded or not.

Old rocket thread

[MikeyD]

I did a quick search of Army images and came up with a couple unfamiliar RPG shapes. These might be the anti-personell variant (see red arrows), though I had thought that type had a narrower body. I hear one annoyance with the anti-personell RPG is due to its nose fuse and narrower body its sometimes able to make it past Stryker slat bars intact. Doesn't penetrate the armor but it doesn't do the outside stowage much good.

[ April 06, 2006, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Cpl Steiner]

MikeyD,

Thanks for the link. I hope CM:SF includes lots of different rocket and missile systems with realistic AP, HEAT, HE etc. ammo types. Hopefully it will also deal more realistically with situations such as when you have AP loaded and a crowd of enemy infantry suddenly appear. Do you fire an ineffective AP round to clear the tube/barrel and then reload with HEAT or HE, or do you take the currently loaded round out and then reload with HEAT/HE? That kind of detail would be very welcome compared to the usual situation in which the correct round is always miraculously pre-loaded.

P.S. - Thanks for the picture of the RPG rounds as well. I was doing my reply to your first post when you sneaked that one in!

[MikeyD]

From they way they've sounded in the past, BFC seems to be very proud of how the rocket/missile sequences have turned out in the game. I think they claimed the flight trajector of their Javelin may be close enough to the real thing to get 'em charged with espionage! :eek:

[Cpl Steiner]

I hope the flight dynamics of all ordnance in the game is as well modelled as the Javelin! Sometimes in CMx1 I've wondered if tank shells etc. have spent a little too long in flight but I haven't actually done the maths to prove it.

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

I have read on this forum that lots of RPG rounds don't have much effect on US vehicles in Iraq because they are the anti-personnel type rather than the anti-armour type. I had not been aware that different types of RPG warhead were available before this.

Can anyone tell me, will the US side have similar ammo differences for it's rocket and missile systems, such as Javelin?

The RPG series of weapons were made in mind to employ different types of munitions and most are reloadable. The US rockets tend to be more disposable and geared for anti-armor.

The Marines use the SMAW, which is reloadable and does have HE, HEAT, and themobarbic rounds. But the AT-4 is HEAT only. Same with Javelin and the TOW series.

The Marines also brought back the 66mm LAW with an HE warhead for urban warfare. I have not seen one yet and I forgot the nomenclature.

I am hoping that some Syrian formations will allow for some decent guerilla tactics like that used in Chechnya. A motivated squad broken into two teams, one with 4-5 RPGs and AKs, and the other with 3-4 SVDs and an RPK or PK would be alot more effective compared to the typical old Soviet doctrinal squad against US forces.

Especially if the Syrian player could place several caches on the battlefield so a squad could fire several volleys of RPGs, zap a driver or VC or two, flee and hide, re-arm, and go hunting agian.

[Cpl Steiner]

LtCol West,

I agree with you about guerrilla tactics and I think the whole "Asymmetrical Warfare" thing in CM:SF is going to be the real pull factor for me. Contrary to the many "WWII or nothing" doubters who populated this forum when CM:SF was first announced, I think CM:SF will be very interesting tactically, precisely because of the big firepower differences between the two sides. I hope BFC are listening to your insights on arms caches etc., as they sound like a good way of reducing the odds against the Syrian side. Syrian militia or terrorist units could be simulated quite effectively by making them virtually unspottable once contact had been lost (assuming they were in civilian clothing) and arms caches and the like would make them a fast and deadly opponent.

[flamingknives]

The US army also has the SMAW-D, which is the same projectile as the Marine SMAW but in a disposable, telescopic, launch tube.

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

The last two at the extreme back of the picture are HE projectiles for the RPG. Believe their nomenclature is PGU something or other. HE rounds for the RPG were just coming into known service back in 1989 when I left military aerospace, so am not up on the details, but suspect www.fas.org will have quite a writeup on the RPG series. The projectiles are so small because they're much denser (thick steel walls for frag effect) than the HEAT projectiles, which have thin walls, lots of empty space (the forward cone) and are packed with relatively lightweight explosives.

Turns out I was a bit overoptimistic. The FAS site did have an RPG writeup, but it consists of a useful but badly outdated 1976 TRADOC manual PDF on just the vanilla manportable antitank weapon, sans HE rounds. It's here in the antitank weapon list.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/index.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[ April 06, 2006, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[MikeyD]

I think Slat armor is supposed to work by being just narrow enough that an RPG round will dent trying to squeeze between the rails, and the dented outer body shorts out the electrics connecting the piezo-electric nose to the base fuse. I think I heard it was about 50% effective at that - coupled with RPG's 50% dud rate, and any survivng bashed RPG round probably detonating wth a deformed HEAT cone, the effectiveness rate then jumps to nearly 100%!

The HE version of the RPG round, though, doesn't have the HEAT piezo-electric nose & base fuse but has a more robust nose impact fuse. There's been some debate about how effective the RPG-specific Slat cage would do against other munittions.

[ April 06, 2006, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[John Kettler]

Here's some information on both a thermobaric warhead for the RPG-7 series weapons and equivalents

and also an HE round, the smaller one in the right side of the picture at the link.

http://www.ciar.org/~ttk/mbt/article/article.janes.fae-grenade.jidr010104_2_n.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

Interesting thing about the RPG, the jet gasses don't exit out the tail like a rocket, but out of that crinkly section at the base of the warhead. Behind that are the spring-open tail fins and behind that is a separate (?) ejection cartridge.

[John Kettler]

Here's a pretty good description of the overall RPG-7 system, to include the different projectiles available.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=rpg.htm&url=http://www.defense-update.com/products/r/rpg.htm

This is a good discussion on how RPGs work, with the RPG-7 featured starting on the second page. The time of flight plot is especially useful. 5 seconds to reach 900 meters.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/rpg.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[Moronic Max]

I think I heard it was about 50% effective at that - coupled with RPG's 50% dud rate, and any survivng bashed RPG round probably detonating wth a deformed HEAT cone, the effectiveness rate then jumps to nearly 100%!

My math may be off here, but wouldn't that mean that the effectiveness of the armor would be 75%? (.5 * .5 = .25 = RPG effectiveness after armor + 50% dud rate)

[panzermartin]

Makes me wonder what types of RPGs are we going to see included in CMSF.

[Imperial Grunt]

Speaking of RPGs, check this out:

Trophy Anti-RPG system

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Moronic Max:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I think I heard it was about 50% effective at that - coupled with RPG's 50% dud rate, and any survivng bashed RPG round probably detonating wth a deformed HEAT cone, the effectiveness rate then jumps to nearly 100%!

My math may be off here, but wouldn't that mean that the effectiveness of the armor would be 75%? (.5 * .5 = .25 = RPG effectiveness after armor + 50% dud rate) </font>

[Peter Cairns]

LtCol West,

And just what happens to the disembarked infantry from the Stryker when the Trophy system goes off....

Peter.

[Moronic Max]

You're forgetting the unquantified effect of standoff and damage to the cone

Ah, you're right. I missed the last part of that sentence. Oops.

[offtaskagain]

The TOW has a bunker buster variant that the Stryker TOW vehicles use. http://www.army-technology.com/projects/tow/

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

LtCol West,

And just what happens to the disembarked infantry from the Stryker when the Trophy system goes off....

Peter.

This is what they say...

"Trophy was designed to effectively operate in a dense urban environment, where armored vehicles operate closely with integrated infantry forces. Therefore, direction, formation and energy of the fragments areMerkava 3 with prototype Trophy APS Ssytem demonstrated at LIC 2005 designed to ensure effective target kill with low collateral damage, and low risk to nearby troops"

I am not sure what they mean by "low risk" but an RPG detonating on the side of a vehicle cannot be good for nearby troops either. I have not seen the system so I am not sure how safe or unsafe it is.

Neat idea though.

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

The TOW has a bunker buster variant that the Stryker TOW vehicles use. http://www.army-technology.com/projects/tow/

That is good to go. I knew about the TOW 2, but not about the bunker buster varient.

A normal TOWs warhead works pretty good as a bunker buster anyway though.

[Peter Cairns]

As said elsewher at $40,000 a piece a TOW of any type is an expensive way to take out a bunker, given that a 120mm HE round for an M1A2 costs about $250.

At about $50 each for an RPG-7 round, I wouldn't be surprised is you could buy a couple of thousand of them for the price of a single Trophy system. Stryker cages may not be the ideal solution but I bet it doesn't $1m to protect a platoon, let alone a single vehicle.

Peter.

[offtaskagain]

M1s are alot less likely to be available to a rifle company than a TOW system. Paying 40K to kill a bunker is alot cheaper than losing one man to knock it out. Direct government payouts easily break 600k per person, plus all the costs of training someone to take their place.