Fire Discipline and Ammo.

[Peter Cairns]

Part question part discussion.

The actual firepower available to a modern squad is far greater than a WW2 one ( Okay there was Soviet SMG squads), but ammo expenditure can be potentially very high.

Now in CMx1 the TI regulated firepower levels when ammo got low, but in CM:SF will the TI regulate in for enviroment, ie automatically reduce firepower to lower levels in MOUT to simulate being in a civilian area.

If players could control this would that be a better solution , sort of like having options for Low, Medium and Heavy fire, and how much of a problem do people feel that ammo supply and restocking from the back of your Stryker will be or should be an issue.

Another issue is irregular or poor quality units. These often have poor fire discipline and carry limited ammunition. This could lead to a situation where ammo depletion could become a real factor quite early on with them shooting off to many ineffective rounds to soon.

This could present the Syrian player with a tactical problem in that he would have a force that would need to be marshalled to avoid it's own tendency to go off half cocked.

Comments please.

Peter.

[mav1]

In CMx1, I usually ran out of ammo half way through a battle. A lot of it down to covering fire. So I can only image I will run out of ammo even quicker in shock force. It's a right pain as I have to get close to the enemy and use granades for the rest of the battle. So regulated firepower level would be a welcome addition.

The AI has a pointless habit of wasting it's ammo against long distance targets, of any unit that's spotted, that it has no chance of inflicting any damage.

[Cpl Steiner]

I have often wondered about this in CMx1 as ammo always seems to run out mid-battle. However, you hear of actual battles that went on for hours without any resupply.

Perhaps the ammo consumption issue should also take into account how many men who can fire actually choose to fire. I have watched lots of news footage of wars around the world in which several combatants almost seem to be taking turns to empty a magazine in the direction of the enemy. You've probably all seen the same sort of thing. One guy steps out of cover and fires his AK on full auto down the street then dashes back into cover, then another steps out and does the same etc.

The firepower of a squad should be the max it can lay down if everyone fires, but the game should limit the number actually firing to some percentage of the whole, moderated by things like experience, training, morale, and maybe user fire control choices as well.

[vincere]

If players could control this would that be a better solution , sort of like having options for Low, Medium and Heavy fire, and how much of a problem do people feel that ammo supply and restocking from the back of your Stryker will be or should be an issue.

That would be a simple welcome addition, especially if the Tac could use it too with player overide option.

[MikeyD]

I'm reminded of that scene in 'Full Metal Jacket" where the troops are advancing into Hue(?) during Tet and a single rifle shot brings down fire from everyone in the unit at full auto. I suspect a unit couldn't do that too many times in succession without running out of bullets!

Regulation of fire discipline 'sorta' happen in CMx1. An elite squad has much much better fire discipline than a green squad. You can't control how many bullets a particular infantryman will fire, but experience level does affect ammo expenditure. BFC may be tempted to leave this function automatic in CMx2 simply because its such a good indicator of unit experience.

There's been some discussion of introducing some sort of resupply protocol into the game. Once again, CMx1 'sorta had this already. I saw it happen once in CMBB but nobody believes me. Several Finnish units attacked Russian defenders and routed them. As the Finns sat unmolested on the map for a couple turns their ammo stock rose back up to near 100%!

[vincere]

I was wondering if anybody had any info on the current actual real life ammo load-outs?

My understanding is that for the most part if units expect a fire-fight then they usually load as much as they can get their hands on and carry.

Also have there been any ARRs from Iraq or Afghanistan that indicate US/UK troops have 'bombed up' again during the fight?

[offtaskagain]

The basic combat load for a Marine rifleman is 6 mags of 28-30 rounds and 2 grenades. But I've heard more than a few cases of guys carrying 14 or more magazines. Firing on semi auto that can last quite a long time. I don't have any idea about belt fed weapons since I've never carried one.

[vincere]

My understanding is that the squad or section carry extra ammo for belt fed weapons.

Another question is are bandoliers still issued?

[ July 12, 2006, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: vincere ]

[SgtMuhammed]

Army basic load is 7 mags (1 in the weapon 6 in the lbv) and 2 grenades. At least it was when I got out in 2000. Troops will usually try to secure more in a buttpack or something. I never put mags in my cargo pockets because they tended to flop arround and rub the skin off my legs.

With the M60 we had a basic load of 800. I usually carried 600 while my AG carried the rest. Plus the squads carried extra belts.

Unlike what Hollywood likes to show, you rarely have the entire squad firing at the same time. Remember that if everyone is shooting at once they tend to run out at once. Soldiers are assigned sectors to monitor and engage in. Guys may move around depending on the threat but you would never put everyone firing at one target. It is the squad leader's responsibility to maintain discipline and assign sectors. He will also direct ammo redistribution.

In short, at any one time several if not most members of a squad are not firing and those that are are not firing blindly on burst. With a basic load a squad can go for quite some time without a reload.

[flamingknives]

A British Army load put forward as typical in "Dusty Warriors" seems to favour 6 magazines, plus loose for four magazines more.

[Imperial Grunt]

For OIF1 my Marine rifle company's basic load looked like this:

CHAPTER 1: GENERAL EQUIPMENT AND COMBAT LOAD

101. INDIVIDUAL COMBAT LOAD:

1. All hands will follow the following guidance for individual combat gear:

• 782 gear configured to personal preference in a balanced manner.

• Serialized gear dummy-corded to gear/Marine.

• 1st Aid Kit on left side of buttpack/warbelt.

• Dog Tag laced in left boot.

• Green sock on helmet mounted goggles to stop glare.

• Last name stenciled in black ½ inch capitol letters on back of helmet. (Or name tape)

• Last name stenciled in 1 inch black capitol letters on back of rear pocket flap of flak and on the center of upper flap of pack.

• Last name written on tag, inserted into window of day pack.

• Glint tape patches worn on top center of helmet and on left-rear shoulder of 782 gear. (1st Mar SOP) IR reflectors worn on helmet, on rear-1/3, symmetrically.

• Phoenix light worn IAW 1st Mar Div SOP. (TBD)

• Each Marine will have 7 empty sandbags in pack for defensive positions.

• 1 carabiner per pack.

• 5 zipties per Marine for hasty EPW restraints. Zipties in buttpack.

• 5’ 550 cord in pack.

• If not worn, SAPI plates carried together in pack. Front plate always worn in flak for attacks on fortified positions. Both plates are always worn for MOUT and in the defense. Groin and throat protectors optional.

• NBC gear (MOPP suit, booties, gloves, decon kit in assault pack).

• Weapons and deuce gear must always be within arms reach.

102. PLATOON COMBAT LOAD:

1. Each platoon will maintain the following gear by SOP:

• 1 set of bolt cutters per squad.

• ISR’s issued to FT leaders and up. ISR’s dummy-corded.

• 3 grappling hooks w/50’ rope per platoon.

• 2 weapon mounted lights per squad.

• 1 air panel per squad (2’X2’)

2. Standard Combat Ammunition Load:

• AT-4s: 2 rockets per FT, carried by R and AAR.

• 2 frag grenades per man always carried in pouch.

• Claymores will not be carried normally, issued as needed for defensive operations.

• Assault section’s demo kits maintained in company vehicle until needed.

• Riflemen:

o 180 5.56 ball (A059) in 7 M-16 mags

o 180 5.56 ball (A059) in one bandolier

o 2 frag grenades (G881)

o 1 AT-4 (C995)

o *1 60mm mortar round (B627, 30, 42, or 43)

• AAR:

o 180 5.56 ball (A059) in 7 M-16 mags

o 2 SAW drums (A064)

o 2 frag grenades (G881)

o 1 AT-4 (C995)

o *1 60mm mortar round (B627, 30, 42, or 43)

• AR:

o 2 SAW drums (A064)

o 2 frag grenades (G881)

o *1 60mm mortar round (B627, 30, 42, or 43)

• TL:

o 180 5.56 ball (A059) in 7 M-16 mags

o 12 40mm grenades (B546)

o 2 frag grenades (G881)

o 1 colored smoke grenade (G940, 45, or 50)

o 1 HC smoke grenade (G930)

o *1 60mm mortar round (B627, 30, 42, or 43)

• SL:

o 180 5.56 ball (A059) in 7 M-16 mags

o 2 frag grenades (G881)

o 2 colored smoke grenades (G940, 45, or 50)

o 1 HC smoke grenade (G930)

o *1 60mm mortar round (B627, 30, 42, or 43)

*All mortar rounds will be in fibers and attached/in buttpack.

(Each squad may additionally carry a belt of 200 MG rounds in ammo can).

• -MG TL:

o 180 5.56 ball (A059) in 7 M-16 mags

o 2 frag grenades (G881)

o SL-3 for gun

o 200 7.62 (A131)

• MG Gunner:

o 30 9mm rounds (A363) in 2 mags

o 2 frag grenades (G881)

o 50 7.62 teaser belt (A131)

o 200 7.62 (A131)

• Ammoman:

o 180 5.56 ball (A059) for 7 M-16 mags

o 2 frag grenades (G881)

o 200 7.62 (A131)

• SMAW TL:

o 180 5.56 ball (A059) in 7 M-16 mags

o 2 frag grenades (G881)

o 2 SMAW rockets (HX05)

• SMAW Gunner:

o 30 9mm rounds (A363) in 2 mags

o 2 frag grenades (G881)

o 1 SMAW rocket in SMAW (HX05)

• Mortarman:

o 180 5.56 ball (A059) in 7 M-16 mags/30 9m rounds (A363) in 2 mags

o 2 frag grenades (G881)

o 2 60mm mortar rounds (B643)

The SOP was not absolute and platoon commanders made adjustments as required by the situation. This list also did not cover things like NVGs and optics, chow and water, sustainment, etc... Everyone carried alot of crap that was all essential to some degree. Our company had been training continually for over a year when we went, so everyone has the essentials down to just ammo, weapons, critical gear, and sustainment. It adds up quick.

I imagine that even the Halo super soldier of the future will still be carrying alot of crap, still following beans, bullets, and band-aids as a guide.

[MikeyD]

Nice posting.

If a loadout like this is followed in CMSF I can imagine players (especially old CMx1 players) complaining about how quickly their grenades and LAWs are used-up during an all-out battle.

But then again CMSF's battle tempo may be so very VERY different than CMx1 that this weapons loadout might be able to last for realistic lengths of time - which would no doubt drive all those twitchy FPS players crazy!

[Imperial Grunt]

The above ammo was just what was on Marines bodies and carrying more would have made people practically immobile.

The Bn was mounted on 7-ton trucks so each squad had more ammo in their vehicles. The company HMMVW had a trailer with alot more ammo, to include things like mortar rounds, javelins, SMAW and AT-4 rockets, grenades, etc.... Resupplying platoons during a firefight is SOP but is something that is not simulated at all in CM.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by vincere:

I was wondering if anybody had any info on the current actual real life ammo load-outs?

My understanding is that for the most part if units expect a fire-fight then they usually load as much as they can get their hands on and carry.

Also have there been any ARRs from Iraq or Afghanistan that indicate US/UK troops have 'bombed up' again during the fight?

Can't help with any of those, I'm afraid, but

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/smallarms/Oxlade.pdf

gives a reasonable picture of what ITDU thought a reasonable section load was before the British Army once again adopted a proper LMG. The number of rounds he suggests is:

960 rds for each LSW: 9 x 30 mag, 3 x 30 mag from rfn, 4 x 150 bandolier

150 rds for each IW: Total of 150 rds: 5 x 30 mag (also carries 1 x 30 mag and 1 x 150 bandolier for LSW)

Total rds in fireteam 1410 (27 mags, 4 bandoliers)

Total rds in section 2820 (54 mags, 8 bandoliers)

This gives about twice the total rounds in an 8-man section as we would have had in the old days with 7.62mm NATO, as suggested by my old copy of 1 WR SOPs:

750 rds for the GPMG: 12 x 50 belt on gun, 3 x 50 belt on rfn.

80 rds for each SLR: 4 x 20 mag

90 rds for each SMG: 3 x 30 mag

Total rds in section 1320 (3 SMG mags, 24 SLR mags, 15 belts).

Of course any number of variations are possible, but something like 750 to 1000 rounds per LMG (or bipod-mounted rifle masquerading as an LMG) seems a fairly constant figure -- WO 32/10400, "Re-organization of the infantry battalion" recommends carrying 1000 rounds per Bren, 50 per rifle, 160 per Sten.

I've not heard of "bombing up" in action, but 20+ years ago it was a SOI in some battalions to push a bergen full of ammo from platoon HQ to the fire section immediately on contact, and the basic business of infantry fighting hasn't changed much since then, so I imagine the switched-on platoons still do it.

All the best,

John.

[vincere]

Thanks for the informative replies guys.

John D Salt

it was a SOI in some battalions to push a bergen full of ammo from platoon HQ to the fire section immediately on contact,

I'd totally forgot about the ammo bergan.

I guess any AFV infantry will have more ammo in their afv if they can get their hands on it.