Wildest game ever - Yoda(allies) vs Hellraiser(Axis)

[hellraiser]

This time, with me as Axis (still not very experienced at playing them) the game turned out to be very interesting with a lot and I mean A LOT of action in the freakiest spots on the map.

Well, here we go:

Axis did the common LC/Denmark turn 2 opening with Poland surrendering in turn 4 (since i am quite tired now, I maybe miss one or another detail but Yoda has promised to correct things tommorrow)

The blue frogs tried to be cocky, performed limited counters but in vain - Axis got France in the normal timeframe - may 40 (i think lol)

Meanwhile, the evil imperialistic british empire paid a visit to the king of Norway, explaining him using four letter words that the ore shipments to Germany must stop and be redirected to the isle.

From his bunker, the fuehrer (yeah, that would be me, thank you very much) promised a swift reaction once France has been taught proper manners. Said and done, immediately after the fall of France, the next 2 objectives were Brest and Sweden.

Brest fell easily, 3 AFs softening up the corps inside and army+corps killing it off. The usual retaliation by the RN deployed around Brest only managed to reduce the strength points of my troops a little bit. Since Yoda usually kills something around Brest, using air and the carriers and this time, there was no sign of carriers around Brest, a thought crossed my mind: Yoda is up to no good in other parts of the map - usually it would be Algeria...so, italian troops embarked and set sail towards Algiers, for a preemptive strike. Well, Mussolini's intuition paid off, and the next turn after I got Algiers, carriers appeared out of nowhere and started bombing Casablanca but, luckily, they couldn't bomb the city out of order and an italian unit was promptly operated inside the next turn. As it will be revealed later, this only delayed things in Africa ...

Meanwhile, Sweden fell in 1 turn , attacked by 2 german armies, paratrooper, 2 german corps and the capitol was conquered by the italians. Since Yoda has a very annoying habit of capturing the swedish mines and port in the north, a german amphib corps landed there - but no sign of uk raiders - Yoda knows I know this and did it before so he didn't bothered this time.

British troops were driven from Norway in a few turns, after the BEF army chickened out and fled Oslo.

Next objective - Egypt, left undefended by the british; pretty easy task performed by 2 german armies, 1 german corps, 1 italian corps and the Supermarina. Oh yeah, Tunisia entered the civilized world thanks to the italians as well.

Franco joined quite late, but the capture of Gibraltar was delayed because usually 3/4 of the RN is down there hoping to pick off a unit or two.

German air , 1 corps , 1 HQ were opped to Spain, Italian HQ and air opped in Morrocco, the italian navy redeployed near Algiers/Spanish coast.

The ideea of such a huge mpp cost for operating was to heavily bomb Gibraltar port with air so the RN can't draw much supply, making things easier for the italian ships - the plan worked very well, allies lost 5 ships and Axis only one cruiser (Yoda, correct me if i am wrong) - italians were quite battered but still alive and retreated to the Med shortly after the raid. Meanwhile, USA joined but their ships were too late to participate in the naval battle.

In the mean time, preparations for Barbarossa were underway - germany bought all corps, 2 extra HQs. Techs were ok, Axis had IW 3, AT 2 HT1 at the beggining of Barby vs Russia's IW2 AT2 HT2.

Knowing Yoda's habit to DOW several minors pre Barbarossa, Axis dow-ed Syria hoping to bring Iraq in but it didn't happen so Iraq and Iran were Dowed by the Allies one turn before Barby.

Anticipating a possible russian invasion of Iraq, Axis maintained a very powerful force in mid east comprising 2 german armies, 2 corps, 1 HQ, all 3 Luftflottes + italian HQ, 2 armies, 1 corps, 1 air.

Barbarossa began in august, if I remember right), german troops capturing quickly the border towns and Kiew. Switzerland and Vichy were dowed as well.

The thing that i had anticipated, happened indeed: russian troops (a very powerful force, several armies, corps, armour, HQ) crossed the border into Iraq and Iran, capturing the iraqi oilfield. the second time Yoda does this against me so this time i was prepared - some armies/corps were killed by the axis counterstrike in Iraq and the remnants of the communists retreated back to the mountains were axis troops couldn't harm them due to low supply they get and high supply and entrenchment the reds get. Axis lost a coouple of corps as well. Defending so heavily the mid east was also the beggining of the end for Axis...

In Russia, the advance was pretty slow, Yoda fortified a tile near Leningrad and some tiles south of Kharkow to cover the resources. Being so heavily involved in Iraq, germans lacked the proper punch in Russia, at least until their armoured units came out of the queue (spring 42).

Leningrad and the forests nearby as well as Moscow and the mountians nearby were covered by entrenched red corps; Kharkow and the mines were covered by corps as well, since all the red heavy units were busy in Iraq. Thus, Finland joined and was not threatened.

In west, a very suspicious calm ... only airraids against the mines and Kiel, quite costly I assume since the flak defence was at lvl 2. Anti air dont work against fighters and Yoda started using fighters to attack a mine which had no unit on top of it.

What were the allies doing? Where they will chose to strike? A horrible thought started to take shape in the Fuehrer's mind ...

The spring of '42 was the signal of the anticipated german offensive in Russia - direction south. In a crushing blow, the germans using massed armour, infantry and only 2 minor AFs, overran the defence on the Dnepr, the fortifications that Yoda built (5-6 fortified tiles) proving to be not enough. Kharkow, mines and shortly after, Sevastopol were taken.

Germans called off the offensive for reinforcing and getting supply.

Meanwhile, in Iraq, Russians reinforced their units and captured Tehran. It was pretty obvious that Iraq is too much for them but they still remained in the area in heavy numbers... so that horrendous thought came again in the Fuehrer's mind...Bingo!!! the western allies will strike in the Med to trap the axis troops there!!! Thus, the german High Command ordered the troops to retreat from Iraq, to Syria and Egypt. Some landing tiles around Suez were blocked in anticipation of the allied task force.

The very next turn I operated away the troops from Iraq, the Fuehrer's worst fears came to life!!! A huge armada, consisting of 75% of the allied vessels as well as countless amphib transports popped in the Med! But despite some landing tiles blocked, as well as the narrow land passage linking Amman with Egypt blocked as well, allied transports popped near Alexandria! Damn, and the city of Alexandria had an italian fighter inside which was killed instantly! Transports making their way in the med despite of axis troops holding the passage is kinda gay, but I had to find a solution to retreat the troops or face total annihillation. This was accomplished by sacrificing 3 german ground troops which managed to open the land connection again to the western parts of Africa.

Preparations for the battle of Moscow were underway, and Axis could not defend Africa. They just retreated all the way back to Morrocco, where it is almost impossbile to be killed due to low supply the attacking force gets from Algiers.

So the allies just took one city after another, invaded Greece and took Albania. In response, Axis Dowed and captured Yugoslavia and retook Albania. Italian armour was deployed to Rome, spanish armour to Sicily, some italian infantry covered the rest of the italian cities.

In autumn 42, Axis began an offensive to capture Moscow which led to a crippling battle for both sides but the Russians managed to hold the positions. Axis lost a lot of troops and more others were severely damaged. With winter coming, the battered germans retreated back to Kiew-Minsk, abandoned Kharkow, set up the defence on the Dnepr and redeployed in the area some more armour and infantry which was coming out of the queue, foreseeing a vital battle around Dnepr -Kharkow - Smolensk in spring-summer 43.

In the Med, the situation was almost out of control, with allied ships ruling the sealanes, and danger of amphib operations looming. Hating to just watch how the allies get everything there, Axis prepared a naval counterstrike with the almost intact italian navy, spanish crusiers and the whole kriegsmarine who managed to sail unspotted to the Med. Unfortunately i forgot to move 2 subs for 1 turn and Bismarck for 2 which was kinda lame from my part

As a side note, the italian sub got trapped in a port and destruoyed by carriers but not before inflicting some pain to an US cruiser.

The summer of '43 saw the greatest battles in east as well as in the med.

Starting from Kiew area, german troops moved forward, destroying some troops near smolensk and others defending the western part of Dnepr. 2 red corps defending the river bend near kiew were encircled. Corps were moved forward to protect the weakened armour used in the offensive. the russian response was swift, managing to kill some of the advancing troops but leaving themselves pretty exposed for the next stage of the offensive. Next turn, some fresh armoured units and infantry from the rear, attacked and annihilated the red spearheads, retaking Kharkow with a str 2 tank and encircling other units east of smolensk and east of mines/sevastopol. A HQ near the mines got his butt kicked down to 5 by a gerry corps

since the encircled troops don't lose all combat ability the very next turn, they were able to inflict some pain in return and even take again Kharkow!!! Next turn, the germans threw everything into the battle, destroyed the majority of the red troops in the area, retaking again Kharkow!

While this huge battle was in progress, Russia attacked and conquered Finland. The victorious red troops from Finland got redeployed to Moscow area, and every available corps was operated by Yoda to cover other cities in the area, exposed to danger (corps from leningrad got replaced by a partisan unit, a sign that indeed russia was not in her best shape)

But this huge offensive and marginal succes in east was the Axis' swan song...

In the Med, the allies were on rampage - landings in Sicily, Gibraltar (left open due to lack of manpower), Portugal captured, and the Axis' fleet getting pulverized by RN/US fleet/allied air + storms + bad moves from my part.

In a daring move, allies landed some corps and HQ in Denmark and captured Hamburg.

It was impossible at this stage to cover all the cities and with Germany making approx 380 mpps/turn, it wasn't possible anymore to continue the war. Most likely Russia's queue was full in contrast to Axis this time.

Like in history, Axis was drawn in an attrition war, with a lot of side actions superbly orchestrated by Yoda. Indeed Axis cannot afford too many battlegrounds at one time - they really need to pick a spot and strike with overwhelming force to break the balance and force the Allies to react to their offensive actions. It is now very clear for me that the best Axis' asset in SC2 is the INITIATIVE - the rest are just tools.

All in all, a very nice game, a lot of wild actions, a lot of blood spilled, a lot of experience collected by me.

GG Yoda & maybe Hellraiser

[ October 23, 2006, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[Retributar]

Yes... 'hellraiser' ...that is a "Hell-Raising" Game!.

Im glad that it was you instead of me in it!.

I would like it if our Game-Scripter's could Script in those moves for the AI in a future MOD!.

It would make for very-exciting game-play!.

[Liam]

Terif is King at Russian Defense

[Blashy]

I don't get it. You had Gibraltar.

How did the Allies get in the med?

If you only lost one Italian ship that leaves 5 ships plus at LEAST 2 cruisers from Spain.

If they bust the Gibraltar port you know they are coming so you have plenty of time.

You know that if you have just one ship (a corps in a transport for example) next to the TWO red arrows near Cairo and no Allied ships can use the Cape of Good hope.

Where did they come from???

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Liam:

Terif is King at Russian Defense

Terif is king... period.

[hellraiser]

"How did the Allies get in the med?"

errr..via the suez loop?

"You know that if you have just one ship (a corps in a transport for example) next to the TWO red arrows near Cairo and no Allied ships can use the Cape of Good hope."

No, I didn't know that. I had a corps in a transport but i think it was not near the red arrows.

Later edit:

I just tested what you said - even if you have a transport adjacent to the red arrows near Cairo or even have 2 of them sitting directly on the arrows, the Allies can still use the loop - they would just pop nearby or if there is no room, flood directly the Med, near alexandra or wherever they find valid tiles.

[ October 23, 2006, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Quotes from Scarface

"Say hello to my little friend."

"I kill Communists for fun. But for a green-card, I gonna carve him up real nice."

"You want to waste my time? OK. I call my lawyer. He's the best lawyer in Miami. He's such a good lawyer that by tomorrow morning you gonna be working in Alaska, so dress warm."

"You need people like me so that you can point your finger and say, 'That's the bad guy.' So what does that make you, good? You not good, you just know how to hide, how to lie. Me? I don't have that problem. Me? I always tell the truth - even when I lie. So say goodnight to the bad guy. It's the last time you're gonna see a bad guy like this."

"You want to go to war? I take you to war... We're gonna eat that Sosa for breakfast."

"I bury those cock-a-roaches."

"In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the woman"

Elvira: "Money, money, money, money, money; that's all I ever hear in this house."

Tony: "Manny, look at the pelican fly -- come on, pelican!."

[Iron Ranger]

Interesting news on the Cape route. I too thought that with a ship next to the arrows it didnt work. A patch changed this?

[Terif]

AAR Hellraiser (Axis) vs Terif (Allies):

In deed this was an epic and one of the most interesting games so far with lots of action all around the map and bloody battles devastating whole swathes of land .

Poland and the western campaign was standard with France surrendering in May 1940. One french cruiser pledged its loyalty to the british prime minister and continued the fight out of 7 candidates, the other 6 units refused to join the cause and got into isolation till the end of war.

Norway sent a letter with the petition for help against the evil axis empire that just tormented the helpless people of their neighbour Denmark – so UK immediately sent a protection force in November 1939. Sweden was still delivering their ore to Germany, but in July 1940 they got betrayed and their capital burned down. UK forces evacuated as many norwegians into safety before they were forced to leave the country to its fate.

Spain was at first not impressed by axis promises, so Axis demonstrated its power by conquering their neighbours Vichy Algeria and Tunisia with italian troops - just before UK forces would have arrived to secure the countries - and they took a record diplo hit of 40% from 40 to 80% readiness. In the next August turn the Axis threats succeeded in the second diplo hit and Spain forced to join unwillingly at September 1940 the Axis cause.

After the experiences with the Axis empire in the past, Allies abandoned Egypt which got occupied by Axis in November 1940. But not without swearing them to one day come back and free the people of Egypt from their oppressors.

Gibraltar remained an oasis of freedom for nearly a year after Spain joined the wrong side...in June 1941 the peace got suddenly disrupted by german dive bombers descending on the fortress. Within a month it got bombed into ruins and conquered. Royal Navy ships assisted the defenders in their efforts but couldnt prevent the fall.

Allied high command knew (from a medium that had contact to previous lives where Axis and Allies battled against each other ) that when Gibraltar falls, the axis fleet would be waiting to break free from the Med to jump at any english ship in range as soon as the entrance belongs to Axis. So they prepared a little trap and left several battleships near Gibraltar bombarding the former besiegers as a bait while removing the blocking cruiser from the entrance. Outside the spotting range - including the baits - a total of 15 combat ships and carriers – the entire british fleet except for one guard ship in England - were waiting for their prey. With them a complete invasion task force consisting of amphibs and transports with HQ, tank, army and corps units to take Cassablanca simultaneously if possible.

The battle started in August 1941 when 8 Axis ships, including the reinforced german Tirpitz battleship crossed the rock and with the help of 4 Axis airfleets sunk 3 UK battleships. Since in Africa italian fighters had their home base and Cassablanca was heavily guarded, invasion got cancelled – but the remaining 12 ships of the Royal Navy surrounded the enemy fleet and took revenge for their dead comrades: sinking Tirpitz and an italian cruiser in the first large battles of this war while the rest of the combined axis fleet got heavily damaged...causing an immediate retreat into the Med after 3 of the blocking UK ships got sunk to free the way back. USA joined in July 1941, so there were 4 more ships on the way to the battlefield...only 1 turn away.

Axis may have sunk more ships than Allies (6 vs 2), but since Axis repaired their ships before and after the battle (something Allies didn´t need to with their naval superiority after the Pacific fleet arrival) - not to mention all the lost strength points for the airfleets – this battle meant a huge mpp drain for Axis, severely reducing their capability to wage the land war just starting against Russia...additionally to most of their air beeing busy in Spain bombing ships instead of supporting the offensive against Russia .

Barbarossa started August 31, 1941 at the last possibility as Russia was already preparing for war. Allies preemptively DoWed Portugal as well as Iraq and Iran when Syria got conquered two turns before Barbarossa by Axis. Since a lot of Axis forces were still in Spain and Morocco, they had to postpone minor grabbing and first to reinforce and operate them to the battlefields. So Switzerland got assaulted and conquered not until some turns after Barbarossa started and preparations for Vichy France needed even till May 1942 since the units used to take Switzerland were urgently needed elsewhere (=Iraq ). Ireland got a preemptive DoW by Axis.

In a three-way war conference in Iceland - USA, England and Russia coordinated their strategy to end the war and free all nations from Axis oppression. Russia got the task to bind as many Axis forces as possible in Iraq while Western Allies would prepare the deadly blow. With this mission, Russia was only able to put up a light defence of its strategical position at Leningrad and the ressources near Kharkov, but prepared fortifications in key positions to delay the unevitable fall as long as possible.

The Iraq mission was a full success – nevertheless a pretty bloody one for Russia...but they were used to massive losses, so nobody cared too much (especially not Western Allies ) when army after army and corps after corps got eliminated by axis airstrikes of the 3 german and 1 italian airfleet around Baghdad together with usually one unit of zealots that were sent into the turnly kamikaze mission to finish a damaged russian unit off – before they were finally killed themselves in response. With the majority of the Axis core units in Iraq, central Russia was the first 10 months after Barbarossa pretty quiet and unthreatened despite the only light defence walls in north and south, just the 4 border cities got taken over by Axis. Western Allied air units were kept busy by bombarding Axis resources while transports and the fleet were looking for empty cities from the polar circle in the north of Norway till Cassablanca in the dessert of Africa...

In June 1942 the kind of trench warfare ended abruptly when 7 german tanks surprisingly overrun in the break of dawn out of nowhere the trenches at Kharkov while the defenders where still sleeping in their beds....several corps and an army died when the fortifications got destroyed in heavy combat, but not without taking some attackers with them....as retaliation Russia destroyed an italian army in Teheran and forced Iran to surrender.

Western Allies now finally had finished their preparations to fullfill their part of the defence pact with Russia and so the largest fleet in the history of mankind set sail around the Cape of Good Hope to hold their promise to the people of Egypt....

But in the first week of August, axis spys in Cape Town South Africa must have spotted the incoming armada and have warned axis command....exactly the turn before the fleet arrived in the mid east, Axis operated all forces away from Iraq that it defended the last 12 months – leaving it to Russia - and prepared a defence of Egypt with 2 HQs, several armies, lots of corps and their airfleets.

Fortunately Allies didn´t leave something to chance and didn´t do things by halves....therefore not the usual invasion force in a size Axis could have handled entered the area, but the whole might of the combined US and UK nations arrived in full force....

A few hours before the fleet arrived, US special forces of the 101st Airborne sneaked into Alexandria where an italian air squadrian was based at, killed all the pilots in their beds and opened the city gates to await together with the citizens the arrival of the allied armada in port....an amazed whispering went through the crowd when tens of thousands of ship masts appeared in the morning of August 16, 1942 on the horizon...during the following 4 turns a total of 28 allied battleship and cruiser task forces, carrier groups, amphibs and transports with millions of US and UK soldiers arrived in Egypt.

Axis forces got horrified when they realized the whole scale of the allied invasion...as they awakened from their paralysation, half a dozen army and corps groups already had surrendered to the overwhelming allied forces. When Cairo got surrounded with the italian and german commanding officers in it – Manstein and his italian collegue saw no other choice than to mask themselves with woman clothes and to sneak past the allied guards during night time to reach a plane hidden in the desert ready to fly them out home...so the 2 axis HQs escaped as nearly the only units of the once proud Africa Corps.

In the following months Allies freed in quick order the whole eastern Mediterranean, marching westward day and night without a break. Rommel and his desert rats of the german Africa Corps were hiding in Tunisia and the march through the desert was a long one, so Allies prepared around New York a second amphib invasion force consisting of half a dozen combat units and HQ Clark that planed landings in Vichy Algeria to attack the Africa Corps from two sides so the remnants of it would finally surrender in Tunis... .

While the Clark task force was on its way accross the Atlantic, Allies followed the invitation of the Greek government to open the first front in Europe via their territory. So HQ Patton with several US and UK armies got dispatched to bring the war to the homes of the enemy minor nations in the balkan. Albania welcomed the allied liberators when the british expecitionary forces entered their capital. As a response Axis occupied Yugoslavia to use its mountains as a protection zone and to reconquer Albania.

In Taranto port the italian sub fleet gets trapped by cruisers and finally sunk by the 4 allied carriers...half a dozen battleships meanwhile bombard 2 axis airfleets based near Rome until they move away in safety. A first landing by UK forces in Sicily cut the isle of from mainland Italy. The first part of Operation Husky got started...

On Corsica a minor axis airfleet gets spotted by US bombers together with an italian battleship in port. This opportunity can not be let go, and so Operation Husky gets postponed for a while: 2 armies and a corps land on Corsica instead, destroying the surprised airfleet and battleship group there. Another cruiser spotted north of the isle gets sunk by US battleships.

This is the opening of the last and largest naval battle of World War II, taking place in spring/summer 1943:

Axis secretly sneaked its entire baltic fleet into the med except for Bismark and united italian, german and spanish fleet around Gibraltar and Marseilles. But the hunt for Bismark gets opened simultaneously as 4 cruisers from the convoying ships for the Clark invasion force bump into it and its accompanying portugese corps transport. English home fleet immediately dispatches Hood together with other battleships to assist in the hunt: Bismark will never reach the Med !...and it gets finally sunk before the coast of Portugal.

In the med the battle starts around Corsica between all 9 left axis ships supported by 4 airfleets from northern Italy and Vichy against 8 allied battleships and cruisers supported by 4 carriers, a bomber and 4 airfleets from Tunisia and Algier that got conquered in the meantime by task force Eisenhower and O´Connor. After a heavy air and naval battle the result is:

all 9 Axis ships at the bottom of the Med – the allied fleet heavily damaged, but only 2 allied ships and a carrier sunk.

Meanwhile in the east...:

After conquering Iraq and liberating Syria, Russia operated its task force back to central Russia to fight the axis invaders. In front of Moskov the first decissive battle started. Axis built up an impressive straight row of 7 level 3 tanks (Russia lv2) south of it before it started its direct assault against fortress Moskov....behind the city in the forest, several russian armies and tanks were already awaiting the enemy....Moskov fully entrenched, now all sides at IW3 and AT3 (Italy also IW3, Motor 1)...corps entrenched in the mountains SW of the city.

The first blood spilled is the german one as they find them a hard nut to crack during the first attack...in the counterstrike and the following open field battle south of Moskov, most of the german tanks and lots of armies and corps find their graves in the russian steppe despite germany supporting them with their high experienced air.

After this major defeat, Axis is forced to retreat behind the river and also to give up Kharkov and both mines it conquered. Here it rebuilds as well as Russia that is also pretty blood dry and similarly entrenches behind the river on the opposite site near Kharkov. In spring 1943 Russia finally has rebuilt all lost corps and armies and also all 6 tanks are in the production queue or already finished...so russian forces leave their entrenchments and move towards the river at Pripjet swamps...and here begins the last tank battle of Kiev:

Germany also rebuilt already all its tanks and many other units and as it gets clear weather, this is the signal for the final battle....Axis forces cross the river at Kiev, meeting the approaching russians on the open battlefield...in the bloodiest battle so far, both sides loose nearly their entire combat units....in the end a message received from the enemy commander before surrender spoke about Axis having left more HQs than units to support – on the russian side it looked quite similar .

Only difference was that western Allies were still at full strength and further gearing up while Russia and Axis were lying on the ground...Cassablanca was still heavily guarded by a german HQ with several armies and corps, so the invasion in Vichy Algeria got cancelled and Clark landed with his men in Portugal, destroying the defender, forcing surrender and additionally occupying the empty Gibraltar. Simultaneously UK landed with Montgomery in Denmark and northern Germany, occupying Kiel, Hamburg and surrounding. At the end also Operation Husky got reactivated again and Bradley HQ landed with a strong invasion force in Sicily to approach Rome from the south.

Axis surrendered unconditionally with Allies approaching Berlin and Rome in July 1943.

A very good game and a hard and bloody fight !

Total war losses:

Land units: UK 19 USA 0 Russia 47 Germany 44 Italy 8

Air units: Allies 0 Axis 2

Ships: USA + UK 10 Axis 16

[ October 24, 2006, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Colin I]

Great game - and inspiring to see that inventive strategies and counters are being employed.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yodl at his best.

[Sombra]

:cool: AAr

Just for clarification Blashy if a ship is put beside the 2 red arrows at Egypt the Naval loop is blocked and Terifs allied strategy would have failed?

[Terif]

For clarification :

The naval loop can´t be blocked - if the hexes around Cairo are occupied by enemy transports/ships or too many allied units arrive at once, then they will get redirected directly into the med to Alexandria.

This way the Suez route is always open and it is a possible strategy for Allies to enter the Med via Egypt again .

[Desert Dave]

Ireland got a preemptive DoW by Axis.

If I might ask... what does this "pre-emptive DoW" REALLY mean? :confused:

It wouldn't, by glad happenstance,

Be the case where a faithful Player

Would DoW some unfortunate tiny-Minor,

With NO INTENTION of occupying it himself? :eek:

Just to DENY plunder to his opponent?

[... morale issue should be defunct

with V 1.05]

**IF SO... and say it right out,

If it ain't,

Well, perhaps

Some teeny tweaks need be made

To appropriate Diplomatic Scripts

(... IE, Tunisia & Algeria, and etc)

Ober there, and yonder too,

And also, as here, for Eire,

I am thinking.

But another grand game,

And most X-cellent story telling,

Soon enough

We'll have to start calling you guys:

Herr Terif Hemingway,

Liam T. (you can't go home again) Wolfe,

And F. Scott Fitz-Hellraiser. :cool:

[... for rambo, well, that'll take a LONG

time to get it... the author of "Superman"

comics? LOL! JK! rambo!]

[ October 24, 2006, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Sombra]

Preemptive DOW seem to be right now the only way to prevent a skyrocking morale of the german troops taking country after country.

That you cant block Suez´ is a little bit cheesey IMHO. I think suez is much more easy to control than Gibraltar for example.

At least the troops should not be able to cross into the Med without securing Suez before.

[Terif]

In reality the world doesn´t end a few hexes south of Cairo and if necessary Allies simply would have marched via land from southern Egypt to liberate the country and not used much amphibs at all in enemy territory there .

In SC2 this is no option and you have to use amphibs instead (take it as an abstract representation) - so that they can´t be blocked is only realistic.

The other way around would be cheesey .

[Jollyguy]

Here's my post from the tech support side:

This loop strategy will of course be subject of debate, but IMO I'm not certain that it should be eliminated. Possibly modified, but I like the fact that the US/Allies can go the other way regardless.

The main risk I see is it possibly unbalances the game in favor of the Allies, but Terif could probably respond to this better. My guess is that fully entrenched units in Axexandria and the environs make it more difficult to exploit this, and that Hellraiser was the unfortunate first victim of the strategy. That would draw Axis units from other fronts, which is the cost to the Axis. Perhaps there could be the equivalent of a US Home Guard activated around the Suez, maybe like the Commonwealth units the UK receives.

But I repeat, IMO this should be allowed, its just a matter of balancing structure.

Terif of course could better address this.

Bob

I am squarely in Terif's court here, as the Allies, especially the US with their amphibious ability, would have just landed at the Horn of Africa and marched in from there, same as they did in North Africa. So, the SC 2 map may end where it does in Africa, but in an abstract sense it doesn't.

From a gameplay perspective its good for the Allies to have another strategic avenue of attack. As usual Terif discovers these possibilities, but its the rest of us that benefit, as gameplay has just expanded to a significant degree.

Terif: In your opinion, does the Axis side need some game balancing help, or can the Reverse Suez Loop Strategy be countered by a good Axis player within existing balance?

Bob

[hellraiser]

Jolly, they may have landed in cape horn...but in '42?

and it would have taken them like half year at least to get to N Africa...meanwhile, axis would have had enough time to react...

In SC2 it is possible to defend Egypt against a 'normal' attack but not against the combined allied fleet and 70% of their land units. It is just overkill, since Axis needs way too many turns to transfer troops down there.

OTOH, even if Axis lose Africa, it shouldn't be the end - think that Africa is marginal, the allied objectives lay on Europe's mainland - Berlin, Rome, Munich - and these cities are not so easy to take. I know it is annoying since you invested time and cash to get africa but apparently in this game , Axis can't hold everything - they simply cannot. I found that hard to accept myself but the more I play the Axis side, the more it becomes more obvious.

For example this last game, I surrendered not because Allies took Africa but because of my failure to exploit the last minor success in Russia - this success was achieved with too many casualties and it was a period when MPPs started to matter - in an attrition war, germany is doomed by default.

The only valid Axis doctrine so far (i would say optimal, some of you may say cookie cutter )is applied with succes by Terif - the concentrated firepower in places at Axis' choice (this is also a RL valid military concept). I.e. keeping the initiative. This is crucial as axis because even the game manual states clearly that germans should expect to be severely outproduced throughout the war, their tools being obviously not the cash.

I had games against Terif where I tried to defend more places than actually I could - very big mistake since Axis do not have the manpower to do that. Instead of keeping the pressure high where it mattered (russia for example) I chose to operate and fight sometimes on 2-4 fronts. Exactly what my opponent wanted - only this way, allies can have the desired breather and build up to win it all.

Indeed a protracted war can lead to beautiful and full of actions games but you shouldn't expect to win as Axis these kind of games against professional opposition. Only against less experienced players it may work. If allied MPP advantage becomes too great, and they are not hit hard enough so as to lose heaps of units and resources, Axis may win only if the Allied player chooses badly the places to fight or recklessly attacks without consideration for losses.

[Jollyguy]

Well, this is part of the discourse needed to hash out this exploit. We can’t literally apply historical parameters to this though, as it is a game.

Terif needs to put on his thinking cap and give us his opinion on if this strategy tilts balance (significantly) toward the Allies. It’s also possible that even Terif doesn’t have all the answers yet, that the strategy needs to be beta tested more. My sense in this game is that Terif played this ace-in-the-hole as a last resort, as Hellraiser had a fairly good western defense set up and was conducting a good campaign.

Perhaps if the Axis researches production technology and infrastructure more they can produce/replace cheap corps to garrison, and operate them around the continent, while they apply the weight of their offensive capability to Russia. Perhaps the change in Axis strategy is that the Kreigsmarine and Italian navy need to stay in the Med, and can’t venture too far into the Atlantic as happened in most prior games. Maybe the Axis needs to commit its navy to control those arrows, and move a bomber to West Coast of Africa, which Rambo did to me one game, while defending France with entrenched minors and fortifications (this might be the best solution).

My guess is that fully entrenched minor units in the immediate vicinity of Egypt will make the strategy more difficult, as Hellraiser only had a lone fighter in Alexandria as a garrison. Then perhaps the Axis can try to contain the incursion. Keep in mind Terif had a large percentage of his Russians around Iraq/Iran, and Hellraiser was applying effective pressure, so if the Med could have been contained maybe the Axis moves east and cuts off the Caucusses. Hellraiser would be the best person, using 20-20 hindsight, to answer if he felt a slight modification in his strategy might have yielded better results.

I will say this. I do like that a new can-of-worms has been opened. It takes a lot longer for a game to become stale when exciting new strategies are being hatched now-and-again.

Bob

[Terif]

I can only agree with Hellraisers last comment: Mpps are not important for Axis in SC2, they only need enough to keep their troops in fighting shape.

The important thing is concentration of firepower and keeping the initiative, i.e. acting instead of reacting .

Like in SC1, Axis will never be able to hold everything and when they try, they will fail and loose the war - this is even more true in SC2 where Allies will always outproduce the Axis throughout the war, so it is deadly to only try keeping what they conquered. Axis have to be willing to sacrifice some of their land if they want to be victorious in the important battles and finally win the war.

@Jollyguy:

Allies have in SC2 many different possibilities to launch an invasion, Egypt is only one of them. This is neither unbalancing nor something special - so far SC2 is balanced in V1.04. It is only one of many possible strategies with advantages and disadvantages .

ATM I already know and tried 4 main strategies for Russia and 8 for Western Allies - they additionally have countless sub-strategies and possibilities for combinations .

The art of war is to choose the right one for each situation and opponent and to change them each game so the enemy can not prepare since to every strategy there exists a counter.

Like e.g. with the russian invasion in Iraq+Iran: the first time Hellraiser got surprised and easily overrun. Now the second time he held the countries without too much problems. But since Allies changed their tactic with western Allies and invaded now in Egypt instead of in France, this new strategic combination resulted again in success - with the same strategy as the game before, Allies would have been in trouble this time .

[Blashy]

Blocking the Suez with one transport USED to functioned. I know because my friend who beta tests with me tried it against me 3 times until he asked me if it was a bug that he could not send ships via the Atlantic (they kept coming back after a few turns) until I explained what I was doing.

Funny thing is we don't really know when it changed because we have no tried it since.

When I read what Terif did I figured it was a bug but overall it is preferable that way, makes the game more open as Hubert said it.

[Blashy]

At the moment in terms of Axis being severly outproduced, well that is not the case because the Axis CAN defeat the Allies.

But the game is not historical in terms of production. Just show me a game where Russians ALONE have more AFS (50% more by end of 42), Tanks (triple by end 1942) AND manpower (400k more by end of 42) on the board than the Germans, it never happens.

Or show me a game where UK has more AFs (58k to 35k by end of 42) on the board than the Germans, it never happens.

Show me a game where the Western Allies can do an invasion of Africa, then Italy AND have enough to also do an Invasion of France AND have more AFs than Germany AND at least 3 bombers in operation.

All of the above COMBINED you will not see.

The game is around 50-50. Which I now know is Hubert's goal.

[hellraiser]

But also the Axis player thinks and prioritizes differently than the historical leaders, right?

Anyway, balance is essential and so far, 1.04 seems pretty well balanced.

[Blashy]

EVEN if Germany had made NO errors.

It was doomed to fail versus UK and Russia, add USA and it had no chance of defeating any of them. Only chance was offer up enough resistance to win a peace treaty.

You can prioritize all you want and be flawless in execution but when you have a competent enemy who is producing THREE times more tanks and 50% more AFs then you one just ONE front... you're now going to DEFEAT them.

[hellraiser]

I tend to disagree here a little bit

The superiority of a doctrine over another and exceptional training can lead to surprising results against a very rich and numerous enemy

Germany could have won the war or at least find herself in a very good position at the end of it. My opinion... I don't want to elaborate on this because it would take time and it's quite a well known debate subject