Weather - VOTE

[Kuniworth]

Ive sent a email to Hubert about this. Found it out when I was tweaking my own Battle for Russia scenario. As it stands now weather data for Russia is very wrong. Winter starts on dec 21 and late fall from dec 1 to dec 20 have a lot of clear turns. As Im a northern european myself I can tell you that this is entirely incorrect. And it's not fun wanting to reenact Zhukov's counteroffensive on dec 5 in clear or muddy weather. This is a must change for patch 1.3.

Have your say. What weather changes have to be made to the vanilla 39 scenario.

[Blashy]

IMHO I find it ok as is. Germany was chugging along ok until the really HARSH winter set in, it only took a couple of months to really screw them up!

I see the effects even more so in my mod, since the overall feel of the game is more realistic (at least I think so).

[Kuniworth]

It's not realistic having a 50% chance of clear or mud in december in USSR.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Blashy:

IMHO I find it ok as is. Germany was chugging along ok until the really HARSH winter set in, it only took a couple of months to really screw them up!

Well actually they were not, have to strongly disagree here. When the russians counterattacked on dec 5, the wehrmacht were already suffering heavily from the winter.

Look I live up here with about the same coldness as in Moscow and northern USSR, I can tell you it ain't warm and clear in december.

Besides the manual states that "snow" is a collective name for snow, blizzard or icy conditions. I think winter fits right in there.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

As I said in the other thread I think all units,

mechanised or not, should move at a maximum of 1

in mud. Perhaps another weather setting (let's call

it "light rain") would be equivalent to what we now

have with "mud."

[Scook]

I am not sure what name the weather zone is (1 of 19 weather zones in game, correct?) but I think it should have a longer winter period. Beginning of Fall should be heavy chance of rain, snow should start in November.

Historically, the rain slowed the Germans into November, then a light freeze hit, letting the Nazis continue their drive on Moscow, then the real bad snow began (I think) November 28th. About one week later, the Soviet offensive began.

Incidentally, 1941 was one of the coldest winters on record.

BTW, Blashy, your mod is playing great! I need to get about a 1/2 dozen gsmes in before I give you some bugs and good feedback, but I am enjoying it so far.

[JerseyJohn]

I think the Russian weather in Clash of Steel was represented perfectly.

You could count on it being consistently severe first, north of Moscow from Leningrad, then the middle region including Moscow, and finally hitting the Ukraine and Caucasus. In the Spring it would clear in the reverse order.

That shaped strategy and gave it a realistic feel. Also, it makes Hitler's 1941 mistake plain, of drawing forces from North to South, then planning on moving north again. It went contrary to the weather patterns and made taking of Moscow and Leningrad as initial objectives impossible.

[Sombra]

I like it as it is

[Blashy]

I like it as is, BUT I do want it to be historical.

Winter starting in December seems very realistic, I have to agree with that.

[JerseyJohn]

Shouldn't December be a little late for Northern Russia?

I'd think the worst weather starts in Leningrad zone around November , Moscow & Ukraine December , Caucasus and Crimea January.

It could start lifting in Caucasus & Crimea March, Moscow, Ukraine and Leningrad April.

October/Nov -- March/April turns would have a high chance of mud in all zones.

There would be some variability for a mild or severe winter, but overall I think those north-->center-->south weather patterns would be pretty historical. In a year with a lot of snow and mud there would be only five months of good offensive weather.

[Kuniworth]

JerseyJohn - exactly.

First of all as it stands now you can have mud or clear weather in Russia until dec 21. That is a joke. Whole of december and also november should be snow.

March-April is all Mud thats for sure. Possibly snow too.

[R.J.]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

As I said in the other thread I think all units,

mechanised or not, should move at a maximum of 1

in mud. Perhaps another weather setting (let's call

it "light rain") would be equivalent to what we now

have with "mud."

I think 'heavy mud' with 1 tile per turn movement would be appropriate in Russia, to reflect the fact they had mainly dirt roads there.

[JerseyJohn]

Kuni,

Agreed. And another thing I liked about the COS system is the first winter of Axis in USSR was a killer, with advanced units being out of supply and understrength. Exactly as happened when the first snow fell in Barbarossa.

Can't understand why people don't want severe weather in Russia. It's not just historically more accurate, it also shapes the game's strategy. Having mild Russian / Scandinavian weather is as bad as representing the UK as being a rowboat ride from France.

-- What it amounts to is December in Russia shouldn't be the start of Russian Winter, it should be the height of the Russian Winter -- a huge difference.

Generally speaking something like this for the country as a whole if it isn't seen as three N->S weather zones:

Oct and March -- MUD

November-December-January-February -- SNOW.

The three weather zones would mean adjusting it to have more severe weather earlier in the north with better weather in the Black Sea / Caspian Sea regions. But essentially all of Russia on this map would have only half of each year suitable for Blitzkreig type offensives.

-- Hitler himself aknowledged this and admitted (to Mannerheim) that it was one of the things he hadn't understood when planning Barbarossa.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

It's not realistic having a 50% chance of clear or mud in december in USSR.

Umm, living in Minnesota, which is the Siberia of the US, I can tell you that December weather isn't that bad. You can have clear, which is pretty much frozen ground, very little snow. So it is realistic.

Now, in January and February…book plane tickets…it gets colder here than it does in Moscow.

[Desert Dave]

Far north near Archangel,

You have "Arctic" weather, IE, frozen.

"Russian Weather:"

Fall & Spring= 20% clear, 80% Rain & Mud

Late Fall & Winter= 5% clear, 45% Rain & Mud

And 50% SNOW

Winter= 0% clear, 10% Rain & Mud

And 90% SNOW

**Now, how is that so dire disimilar to what has been, in general, herein wished for?

____________________________

"European Weather" extends into Russia,

Forming a rough-cut ARC from:

Riga -> Minsk -> roughly equidistant between Karkhov & Smolensk - > Stalingrad, and is as follows:

Spring & Fall= 40% Clear, 60% Rain & Mud

Late Fall= 20% Clear, 45 % Rain & Mud and 35% SNOW

Winter= 10% Clear, 30% Rain & Mud, and 60% SNOW

**Also, sounds pretty close to what has been asked for.

__________________________________

Sure, there COULD BE even MORE weather zones.

[... don't forget, JJ, long ago we had proposed that TORRID zone in & around Casablanca, so to account for Rik's constant cigarette smoking! LOL! :cool: ]

Does somebody have precise weather data for the AVERAGE rain & snow fall during the period, 1939 to 1946?

I think, thus far, we are going by the general tendencies, as opposed to any semi-freakish inconstants.

After all, Winter of '41 was X-tremely harsh, so that is an outlier on the weather graph, for sure.

Thing to do is this:

1) Make yer own MOD, with yer own ideas on what all of this weather SHOULD BE... how many zones? 20? 30? 50?

2) Play 3 or 4 games to test it out and see IF there are any SIGNIFICANT differences in how it is NOW re-presented.

3) Report back, let everyone know what is what, how it is different, same way as JdF2 did in his very accomplished test for... implementing lower "Sub VS ASW" report.

4) THEN, Hubert would have a good and larger sample size to base future decisions on. You shouldn't be making sudden changes based on mere opinion, or anecdotal recollections, true?

___________________________

I would agree with those who would say that, as of now, without further testing of possible "variant MODS" to prove O/W, the game is pretty accurate insofar as "average weather" is concerned.

After all, I have read VERY MANY complaints that there is just too much of a "slow down" during Spring and Fall, West Front, East Front, all around the SC Town.

Could indeed be further tweaks, and there are those "in between Seasonal" periods provided, by Hubert, specifically to "fine-tune" the weather patterns.

Reasonable folks can disagree on what those shoud be, as with all other "default features."

[Kuniworth]

Ive made the weather zones like this in my scenario for the zone I call northern Europe;

Spring(march 21-april 30) 100% Mud

Late spring(May 1-june 20) 60% clear, 40% Mud

Summer(june 21-sep 20) 100% clear, possibly could add mud here too

Early fall(sep 21-oct 14) 60% clear, 40% Mud

Fall(oct 15-nov 30) 60% Mud, 40% snow

Late Fall(dec 1 - dec 20) 100% Snow

Winter(dec 21-feb 28) 100% Snow

Late winter(march 1-march 20) 100% Snow

That is the setting for my new scenario. What do you say John something I should change? Unfortunately the seasons are divided into strange segments, I can tell you no one here would call dec 1-20 late fall. It's winter. Period.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Lars:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kuniworth:

It's not realistic having a 50% chance of clear or mud in december in USSR.

Umm, living in Minnesota, which is the Siberia of the US, I can tell you that December weather isn't that bad. You can have clear, which is pretty much frozen ground, very little snow. So it is realistic.

Now, in January and February…book plane tickets…it gets colder here than it does in Moscow. </font>

[Desert Dave]

I can tell you no one here would call dec 1-20 late fall. It's winter. Period.

Not according to "solstice seasons," which is what Hubert has decided to use.

And, is there EVER 100% certainty, in anything, Kuni, as you have it?

________________________________

so I can't believe really that in SC 2 there is no "winter" in Russia before dec 21.

As delineated above, there is 50% Snow in late Fall for Russia proper, AND 35% for European Russia.

Now, how on earth is that NO winter? :confused:

[theike]

in my mind the weathercharts on tv of and around europe always show Russia in bad weather conditions way before december. (and atleast for a whole 3 months and even longer.)

[Lars]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

Well Lars let's read the manual. It clearly states that snow also represent icy conditions. Snow in sc2 still mean you can move the same so it's not a problem. What is a problem though is that "clear" makes you have a green ground during december. Man I tell ya it sucks.

Hm I don't know whats your weather is like but here winter starts in late october-november and temperature is often down to -20 or -30 degrees celcius. I know we don't differ that much from Russia so I can't believe really that in SC 2 there is no "winter" in Russia before dec 21.

Umm, no. Brown grass, and I said very little snow, not none at all.

Our weather pretty much compares with Archangel, Russia. Gets down to -50 C here. Continental weather pattern and all that.

Have a German report at home somewhere on the Russian winter. Think it was written by Raus.

Yep, in here if you can find it.

Fighting in Hell: German Ordeal on the Eastern Front (Hardcover) by Generaloberst Erhard Rauss

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

Far north near Archangel,

You have "Arctic" weather, IE, frozen.

Well problem with frozen is that you can't have anything else in a frozen weather zone.

And the Arctic zone in sc 2 states that there is frozen or Arctic weather down to Luleå port. That's completly wrong, I live on that coast further down but been to both Luleå and Kiruna several times and I can tell you it AINT FROZEN AT ALL DURING SUMMER, SPRING, FALL. Heck go ask Zappsweden if you don't believe me.

"Russian Weather:"

Fall & Spring= 20% clear, 80% Rain & Mud

Late Fall & Winter= 5% clear, 45% Rain & Mud

And 50% SNOW

Winter= 0% clear, 10% Rain & Mud

And 90% SNOW

**Now, how is that so dire disimilar to what has been, in general, herein wished for?

Because it's wrong. Look I don't know how we cathegorize the weather but 5% clear in late fall(dec 1-20) is beyond me to comprehend. To sum it up weather effects are not as harsh as they should be.

Sure, there COULD BE even MORE weather zones.

[... don't forget, JJ, long ago we had proposed that TORRID zone in & around Casablanca, so to account for Rik's constant cigarette smoking! LOL! :cool: ]

Does somebody have precise weather data for the AVERAGE rain & snow fall during the period, 1939 to 1946?

I think, thus far, we are going by the general tendencies, as opposed to any semi-freakish inconstants.

"Semi-freakish"??? Damn man I live not far from Russia and you don't. And you have the nerve to come and talk to me about this crap from some desert in the US???

Man what a joke! :eek:

1) Make yer own MOD, with yer own ideas on what all of this weather SHOULD BE... how many zones? 20? 30? 50?

Ah yes, the ole editor arguement. I tell you what. Im telling this to get the vanilla scenario right, not because I wanna try it in a scenario.

What you are really saying is that the russian winter was no hindrance at all on attack values as you accept "clear" in 5% in december. I guess the snow just disappeared for a week or two right?

After all, I have read VERY MANY complaints that there is just too much of a "slow down" during Spring and Fall, West Front, East Front, all around the SC Town.

Ah is this what it's really about then? Well I be damned I never thought weather should be used to balance the game. I believe it would be better to use other things than that.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Lars:

Fighting in Hell: German Ordeal on the Eastern Front (Hardcover) by Generaloberst Erhard Rauss

Yes I have the book here on the book shelf. Really like his description of 6th pz divisions first encounter with KV-1:s at Raseinai in june 1941. :cool:

[Lars]

Well, look then Kuni, you should know that the weather wasn't that damn bad.

It just sorta sucks if you forgot to pack the longjohns.

[Desert Dave]

"Semi-freakish"??? Damn man I live not far from Russia and you don't. And you have the nerve to come and talk to me about this crap from some desert in the US???

Man what a joke! :eek:

LOL, it IS kinda funny, ain't it!

Question?

How many game-designers that you know of live in Arctic conditions?

My best guess... most of 'em live it out in comfortable quarters and have NEVER been to Fort Lamy, HQ for the Free French there in Central Afrika, NOR to Murmansk to test the waters on a daily basis to determine WHEN the Port is inaccessible... have they?

Likely, they go by historical references, and common knowledge and, not to omit, their very OWN "take" on what should be included in a game, and what not.

Seems reasonable to me. THEY take the risks, they have EARNED the right to stick into THEIR game whatever they choose.

Now, here you have a guy, Hubert, who is, IMHO, without doubt the BEST at listening to, and implementing Forum Members commentary and suggestions.

Could be he will once again, WRT to weather, who knows, other than the Shadow?

BTW, I got enough nerve to have survived this long, Skando Mondo, and I ain't much a'fearin' enny yer or any other's words, nor the surely impending mutational dis-eases comin' our way, neither.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Lars:

Well, look then Kuni, you should know that the weather wasn't that damn bad.

It just sorta sucks if you forgot to pack the longjohns.

Depends what you mean by bad :cool:

Raus states that in early december 41 his forces fought on the Moscow front. There were severe problem with the cold already in early december and it went down to -32 degrees celsius in january 1942.