SC2 v1.02 Tech caps “Thank you for your visit and goodbye”

[rleete]

You forgot "as Sombra stated in the original post." I agree with your earlier assesment.

Smaller increments means a wider range of possibilities. IW1 vs. IW3 is a huge difference if 3 is the max. IW1 vs. IW3 isn't so much if the max is 6 or 8.

[Sombra]

@ releete, you expressed the idea much nicer

[Rolend]

The problem really comes in with the cap. As the Axies you just can't spend enough to ensure you get the vital techs which really leaves out the minor techs.

As an example if I played the Axies pre patch I could have as many as 5 chits invested in IW just so that I would up my odds of getting it. Post patch I don't dare put 5 chits into IW as I need those chits for other things such as armor or IT. Now if I get unlucky and catch no IW for some time, which is much more likly since I don't have 5 chits in, and Russia does get lucky and get 2 or 3 IW by the time the war starts then I can be in a world of hurt and that is vs AI, if it is vs an average human player you can kiss the game goodby.

I do want some luck in my games but not to the point where it regularly makes or breaks a game. IMO lowering the Axies cap to 750 was by far the worst part of the patch.

[rclawson007]

It is a matter of statistics folks. I like the current system, and think it represents the effect R&D at the level that a national leader has rather well...although the term realistic has questionable meaning in this context.

If you want to advace IW then invest heavily in it. Also remember that if your opponent invests in Int and you do not, then don't expect advances without a heavy investment. Warfare R&D conducted during the course of WWII over a 5 year period...FIVE YEARS FOLKS... was staggering. Compare that to our defense industry today (of which I am an integral part). F22 fighter - 15 years. A12 - 10 years and cancelled because it was 5 years behind. Bradley APC upgrade - 12 years. And the above three are simple evolutionary weapon system...not revolutionary...like the V2...like a functinal gas turbine engine...or even the Wasp or Merlin piston engines. Or the development of Heat rounds, armoured plate layering, synthetic oil, etc. etc. up to the atomic bomb. Of which Germany also had a program, which could have been successful. Although the fact that not a few of the researchers were of Jewish decent and worked to slow the effort...or the fact that US sent covert troops into Norway and Germany and managed to steal over a ton of Plutonium from the Germans. None of which was within Hitlers control...no matter how many duetchmark he sank into the program. There are other examples and they're just part of the challenge of the game. Just be glad you're not the ones who had to accommodate these setbacks in real life. If you want a game devoid of luck...try chess.

[pzgndr]

Tech is too random and advances too quickly.

My modest suggestion for a long time has been to limit the number of chits you can invest in an area at a time. I think 2 would be good and provide adequate delays to the higher levels. 3 would provide some more flexibility.

But clearly, strategies of pumping 5 chits into a single tech and getting very rapid advances is problematic. Hubert should be receptive to making some adjustments, but what exactly does the player community want??

[hellraiser]

Blashy pointed out correctly - axis has to get IW,AT,HT,PT - usually these are enough even for the toughest allied player

IT for Germany is USELESS. IT modifier (the one incresed by the tech) is applied only to NATIONAL resources, not to the conquered ones as well. So germany at lvl 4 IT would make extra 40 mpps/turn? Come on PT is Germany's favourite.

Ref. tech caps - with or without tech caps, Axis will follow roughly the same path PT IW AT HT - without these, Axis can never win a game of SC2.

MPPs spent on jets, LR will come after the ground units are teched properly. SC2 is not an air war, it is a ground war full stop.

I agree though that tech caps are not such a good ideea - after all if i got the $$$, it's my business how i spend it. If you go all tech, you may end up losing the game because you don't have enough units. I am all in favour of removing the tech caps or at least double them.

[Guest Mike]

IMO the difference in effect between IW 0 and IW3 is too great - just what are the different techs supposed to represent? MP43's? They weer good, but not THAT good - and what was the IW 2 level that Germany must've had at some stage imp between??

the UK didn't really change weapons at all during the war - more SMG's, LMG., and MMG's for sure, but no great tech level advances - indeed the Sten was decidedly LOW tech!!

So they start and end the war with derivatives of the old 303 as the standard infantry weapon.

The US went from Springfields to Garands - definitely up-teched, but then they stuck with the BAR, which was not the world's greatest LMG.......

so perhaps "IW" tech really represents artillery? Certainly there was improvements in artillery throughout the war - the use of hte proximity fuse by the allies at the end was important, but not decisive ('cos the war was already essentially over)....but was there much else?

And did such advances REALLY take THAT much away from production anyway?????

Certainly the Manhattan project took up a lot of money, but AFAIK not all that much in the way of other resources except maybe copper for wiring!!

Did developing the Panther or the Sherman Firefly or night-fighter-radar use up enough resource to equip a brand new infantry corps?

[pzgndr]

just what are the different techs supposed to represent?

This has been debated and discussed since Day 1 when SC was released. The game is abstract, so all these CTVs and tech upgrades represent relative differences between forces. Combat power is a composite of specific equipment, unit organization, training and doctrine, and various other factors. It would be too simplistic to say that German L0 tanks are Pz I/II, L1 is Pz III, etc. Then we'd be scrutinizing exact values between tank A and tank B, when they historically appeared, etc.

I know some players really enjoy worrying about that stuff. But when playing SC2 for fast and fun play, the couple of seconds you spend moving a unit rarely involves a player getting too concerned about how many Pz Vs are really engaged against how many T-34s and whether the combat results are perfectly accurate to the nth degree.

I also know you guys are tired of hearing "use the Editor" but it is there and does allow you the community to experiment with some alternative ideas, play some games, and report back what your results are. Try some different CTVs, research caps, whatever. Then make some suggestions for improving the default campaigns and give Hubert a chance to make a few adjustments. Or, develop a seperate campaign for tournament play and maintain it through a community website like panzerliga or cmmods, much like CORE has done with HOI2.

[Sombra]

From my experience mods are not accepted by most players as standart for playing HvH . People want to play the official game /scenario.

I think most of the players who participated in this tread agree that tech levels right now represent a to huge difference in combat value.

Therefore tech is not only important but can be a game breaker if luck is to important.

I can only repeat myself :

Simply spread the tech wider and reduce the importance of each step.

Every level over level 5 could have the same research possibility as the step from lvl 4 to lvl5.

As we wont get as much bang per level of tech and have to pay more for research and upgrades. I dont think that would see to many high tech games with every unit maxed out tech wise. With more tech levels a fast follower strategy with intel tech could work. Long term the Allies simply have the MP advantage so in the late years I imagine myself the germans will fall behind the Allies in the tech area which feels fine for me.

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

Long term the Allies simply have the MP advantage so in the late years I imagine myself the germans will fall behind the Allies in the tech area which feels fine for me. [/QB]

Yes and now... the german tech was way ahead of the Allied tech in the late stages of the war..

[Sombra]

@Hyazinth: As you could still do but you will have to sacrifice number of units for tech. Very few high tech units (strategic decison by player) against mass produced armies (decision by the alleid player)

In game v1.02 many times Germany is behind in tech and doesn´t have any chance to try a high tech game.

With more money to spend on research (if the player wants) we will hopefully again see different strategies.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

Did developing the Panther or the Sherman Firefly or night-fighter-radar use up enough resource to equip a brand new infantry corps?

It's not really the resources used up that's a problem. A Panther doesn't take much more steel than a Pzkw III. In fact, the steel cost is the least of your problems. There is also the retooling of the various plants, debugging, etc.

And perhaps most important, there is the opportunity cost. You could have built a heck of a lot of Pzkw III instead of a couple of Panthers. Or a couple of Pzkw III and enough arms for your new Inf Corps, assuming you didn't screw with that retooling too.

[Lars]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

I also know you guys are tired of hearing "use the Editor" but it is there and does allow you the community to experiment with some alternative ideas, play some games, and report back what your results are. Try some different CTVs, research caps, whatever. Then make some suggestions for improving the default campaigns and give Hubert a chance to make a few adjustments. Or, develop a seperate campaign for tournament play and maintain it through a community website like panzerliga or cmmods, much like CORE has done with HOI2.

Think this is probably where we're going to end up. A campaign for HvH, and one for the AI. All Hubert has to do is put it on the final patch and everybody's happy.

Well, for about five minutes anyway.

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

@ Sombra: Basically you are right... Germany had advanced tech, but wasn`t able to produce it in large numbers... as the most german units were immobile low tech infantry units, it`s right. So I would say that the realistic situation was as follow: Germany had IW 2/3 and HT 5, but PT was inaccurate.. and they didn`t have anymore MPP.. and very few upgraded units. Since SC2 should be more lesse realistic, I would recommend that it should be possible for an Axis player to reach the same state in the game, but I find this really difficult with 750 Research Cap.

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

Think this is probably where we're going to end up. A campaign for HvH, and one for the AI. All Hubert has to do is put it on the final patch and everybody's happy.

I LOVE this idea! Have you sent Hubert a mail with this idea already? Should be the easiest solution.

[Blashy]

With 750 cap I max out IW, HT, AT, Motor and PT easily.

I usually have HB, LR, AdvAir all at level 3 or better.

All are achieved not late in the game.

[dicedtomato]

The Germans didn't always have better tech. The Allies had better radar, better trucks, better communications, etc.

I always enjoy watching people drool over some German wonder weapon that was often nothing more than a pencil sketch, a wooden toy in a wind tunnel, or an over-engineered monstrosity like the Maus.

Before we complain that 750 MPP is too low, let's remember that the Axis outproduce the Allies for the first half of the war. Germany can afford 750 MPP. Can someone explain to me how the UK can afford 1,000? As usual, we're fussing about Germany, when it's the UK that's broken.

DT

[Blashy]

Because even at 1000, UK does not have the cash to get better tech.

But long term, UK did have better technologies.

[Rolend]

Blashy better tech as in what, that was a fairly general statment. Lets look at tanks for example, both the US and England were well behind tank tech to both the Germans and the Russians. To be honest I think most of the major powers were even in tech over all it is just that the focus was in differant places for each.

[Blashy]

As pzgndr stated, HT tech is not just about HEAVY tanks, the support structure is also there.

Like planes, the allies had better radar and radar counter measures.

Each tech also accounts logistics, the allies had better logistics, the western allies for sure.

But again, this is a game and history can be changed, you could end up with better tech for Axis in unconventional areas historical to WW2.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Proposed Tech System

[Sombra]

As you research always the same techs anyway and it only brings in a frustrating balance problem than perhaps you should scrap the whole research thing :mad:

[dicedtomato]

Going back to the old research system in SC1 is not a stupid idea. The problem is that luck-dependent research doesn't fit SC2.

Compared to many wargames, luck doesn't play much of a role in the SC series. There are some minor variations in combat results and weather, but otherwise the the games are fairly predictable. Follow a particular strategy (grab Benelux on Turn 2), and you'll get consistent results. The game is chess-like, and the players that really like SC2 tend to be master-planner types.

Research in SC1 was also predictable. But SC2 turns research into a luck-fest. Tht wouldn't be a problem if other parts of the game depended on luck. If Russia blew its IW research, then maybe it could compensate by lucky results in ground combat. But ground combat is predictable; if Russia has IW0 and Germany IW2, the results are consistent and unpleasant.

Going back to the old research system - but limiting how much each nation could spend on research - is the easiest solution.

DT

[John DiFool the 2nd]

:confused: I thought the underlying algorithms for

both games was basically the same...

[Iron Ranger]

Follow a particular strategy (grab Benelux on Turn 2)

Reading this and the AARs shows me that eather Germany is WAY too powerfull at the start (again) or the Pol's are too weak. Its sad that a few of those French Armys are not Polish (they had 1M men armed at the start) and that the french have mear corps in the Mag Line.