Encirclements and morale

[Iron Ranger]

'Mercenary's' date to the 100 years war. When the French and English were taking a break all the profecianl troops still needed to make a living; so they started working for other.. for pay.

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by Baron:

Desert Dave -

I enlisted because I felt I had an obligation to my country- to the men who fought for my freedoms and rights, and so my children could enjoy the this country like I have.

I reenlisted for totally other reasons my obligation to my friends, no my brothers whom I have fought with and who know they can trust me when the sh*t hits the fan. I’m 40 years old and the closest friends I have are all men I’ve served with in Iraq.

I’m a “weekend warrior” with 18 months of combat under my belt in two deployments – a father of three, an employee of the local school system, and an SOB when I upset the wife – what I am not is a mercenary . You should choose your words more wisely our resident poet

Baron,

First, allow me to say:

I personally appreciate you and your family's

Service to America, and next,

You bet, I WILL choose the following

Words, VERY carefully.

And, will repeat what I say to those Vets

That I am able to help in off the streets,

Resolving - if only temporarily,

My over-riding concern - getting them

To replace their debilitating drug habit

With something else

That they might value - more.

At some point in this process, I always

Simply say this:

Welcome back,

Welcome home, brother.

[... the females tend not to end up

with a drug habit, nor - on the street]

My father was career "Army"

And was a "Marcus Aurelius" kind of "stoic,"

Take that how you will.

I learned many valuable things from him,

But germaine to our conversation,

Are the following two:

1) NEVER ever brag about "war service."

[... having served in the Pacific for 3 years,

and in Korea for 2 more, he had a whole chest-full

of ribbons... he never wore them, ever, not even to full-dress occasions; once was threated by a Brigadier General with court-martial for failing to do so - even then - he refused]

2) NEVER be "political" while in Service.

________________________________________________

Since we were "Army brats" so to speak,

My brother and I both volunteered

When it was our turn to serve.

The youngest brother was yet a teenager

When that helicopter lifted off the roof

Of the embassy in Saigon, but, knowing him

As I do, I am quite

Certain he would have volunteered as well.

RE: Above two lessons learned from my Father

1) NOBODY - not my brothers, my sister, my son

Nor my wife or best friends knows ANYTHING

About my own private service.

And so, NOBODY on a public forum will

Know of it, either.

2) A recent, and properly empirical survey reveals that ~ 80 % of today's Army officers WILL ADMIT that they are... "Republicans."

This disturbs me EQUALLY as much as the fact

That today's Army "buys allegiance," at least

Insofar as the enlisted personnel are concerned.

What are we soon to have?

An Army for each of the major political parties?

Now, I have been registered as "an Independent"

Since the time I could first vote, age 21.

I have voted both ways, and IMHO,

THE most under-rated President we've had

Was Gerald Ford, whom I voted for

In 1976.

My Father NEVER - in my presence, indicated

Any political preference.

Instead, he would say, if asked how he voted:

"None of your business."

______________________________

I am also quite disgusted that we now

Allow private Corporations, most especially

Haliburton, to employ "mercenaries."

What "allegiance" in the real and final sense

Do they have?

This is no minor deployment; this is a MAJOR

Problem... credible sources suggest,

The actual number

Of "mercenaries" being well over - 50,000.

When I went in - disdaining my "privileged"

2S status, I earned 98 dollars a month as

A private, E-1.

Within a year I attained E-5, and was then making

About 220 dollars a month - most of which was

Sent home as an "allotment."

I didn't care HOW MUCH it was, I was

Doing my duty.

As you.

But, times have changed, drastically.

These days, the "standards" grow

Ever more lenient,

Now allowing more and more "felons" for instance,

So to entice the "poorer kids" into enlisting.

Again, we are NOT speaking of the Officer Corps.

The poorer kids very often ARE looking for money,

Or its equivalent - training that might be used

Once out of Service, so to secure a job.

NO DOUBT, that a small percentage are also

Interested in "adventure" as all of us males

Tend to like to do.

Also no doubt that a small percentage

Do it because they feel an obligation

To serve their Country.

That, and no more.

However, it is MY belief - arrived at over

These many long years since 1966

When it was I had volunteered,

That we are fast approaching a time

When MONEY is indeed the primary reason

These kids enlist.

Money money money.

It's the American way.

Not my way, but the culutural inheritance

Of a long-standing concern - both secular

AND religious, that money is truly

The measure of the Man.

How he attains respect and "status" in this Society.

_________________________________

All of that as background

(... and VERY likely, much MORE than anyone

cares to hear),

I will, at last, tell you that I will NOT

Edit my remarks.

Say,

Replacing "mercenary" with "all volunteer."

The latter phrase being some sort of concoction

Designed by the "spin-meisters"

To put a "happy face" on a VERY serious matter.

To conclude... presently, IMO,

We are doing it - all wrong.

We should have a draft.

EVERYONE, including Senator's sons

Should have to serve - 2 years.

[... side note: VERY odd to me that our

So-called "warriors,"

IE, the ones most fit - as it EVER

Has been in all of recorded History,

The "athletes" (... RE: war preparation

known as - the Greek Olympic Games)

Just... never seem... to serve?

Compare that to WWII, when most

Of the baseball players "volunteered."]

Now,

That "volunteer service" could be

In one of the branches of the Armed Forces,

Or, should any individual prefer,

In the "peace corps" or, in VISTA

(... Volunteers In Service to America; every bit!

as valuable - RE: disaster in New Orleans - as

war service)

I am not to blame if someone places a "perjorative"

Or negative connotation

On the old word - "mercenary."

I would suggest that negative aspect

Is due, primarily, to the current RELIANCE

On "buying a way" out

Of... ANY kind of trouble.

Same as how the "rich kids" and "celebrities"

Prefer to do it, BTW.

Whether diplomatic, or economic or military.

Whether judicial or familial.

It's a kind of "dis-ease" in our Culture.

Again, merely my private opinion,

NOBODY needs share, and no,

I don't worry a solitary moment

Whether anyone shares that belief.

We ARE indeed a "mercenary" kind of NATION, Nowadays.

And that disgusts me.

And that carries over into the "politicized" Army,

And even worse,

The very strange notion that we CAN,

And should - "buy" an Army.

Whether it be a Mega-Corporation,

Or a corrupt "pol system" that permits

Us to go to war

WITHOUT Congressional approval,

WITHOUT "just cause,"

And far more Nation-destructive than that,

Pre-emptively.

IF it were a conscripted/militia

Or drafted Army, well,

Many would, IMHO, do exactly

What the Military Code of Conduct

Demands that they do.

QUESTION the authority of ANY Officer

(... Mi Lai, Abu Ghraib)

Who issues illegal or immoral "orders."

____________________________

I am patriotic, mostly.

I am an American, born and bred,

And will not give up my birthright

MERELY because some others might say

Such simplistic, manicheistic, jingoistic

Flat-out bull-sh*t as this:

1) Ari Fleischer, after 9-11:

"Americans need to watch

what they do, and what they say."

2) If you are not with me, you are against me

3) Dissent is not permitted, it is traitorous

4) The President can unilaterally declare war

_______________________________________

OK, enough.

I applaud your service, and value it.

Is America, and is - it's modern Army

"Mercenary?"

In any & all "senses of it" that I have herein

Delineated?

Yes, and quite unfortunately,

It is.

[ August 29, 2007, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[SeaMonkey]

Well said DD, and I agree with your logic, but I must present a counter philosophy, not really a counter, but more a different perspective.

After all, as you alluded to, it is the American way.

Certain positions in a civilized, and I use the term loosely, society require the highest order of the human fabric. These are suppose to be the role models....I know, greatly skewed in the present, but never the less of paramount importance.

Among others, military service should be one of those positions of higher callings. It takes training and incentive to propagate an efficiency that literrally means preservation of life. It takes longer than two years to reach that level of proficiency, especially with reference to the complication of weapons systems that are today's norm.

I wish in no way to denigrate the issue of public service, IMO should be a requirement of all citizens, but for something as important as the defense of my society, I want professionals at the helm. I want the best of the best and that goes for teachers, law enforcement, and politicians also, the latter needing a gross infusion of human quality.

These positions should be beyond reproach and I don't care what it takes to fill them, if money is part of the incentive package, so be it.

The thing is, it may be money that provides the catalyst initially, but if the proper people are attracted to the proper positions, money won't be required for the maintenance.

[ August 29, 2007, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[targul]

Well, Seamonkey, I believe the majority of the men and women who join the service do it because they love there country and want to make a difference. I cant imagine them joining for money because it has always been low. I remember when I joined the pay was $76.10 a month and I was making almost $50 a day so it certainly wasnt money for me, my brothers or my dad. We are a military family by tradition.

[Desert Dave]

Well said DD, and I agree with your logic...

Well, SM, it warn't so much "logic"

As it was... "gut-feeling"

That a LOT is amiss these here strange

Days in late great America.

I would imagine that one's personal

"Honor Code" would dictate

Their decision whether to defend

Their neighborhood,

Their City,

Their State,

Or their Nation,

From unruly gangsters

(... "gangsters" truly being an

all-inclusive, deliberately

chosen word ).

Targul:

I believe the majority of the men and women who join the service do it because they love there country and want to make a difference.

THIS time I will use what logic

I am able to muster:

Hmmmm... so I am to assume

That "poor kids" LOVE their country

MORE than rich kids?

MORE than students?

MORE than athletes or celebrities?

MORE than Politician's kids?

MORE than the Politicos - themselves?

Who never serve?

Never DID serve during the quagmire times?

"Chicken-hawks" we call 'em.

And BTW, IF you should need a LIST

Of who served (... amongst the Pols)

And who did NOT,

I'd be happy to provide it.

VERY curious the # of Republicans,

As with messers Bush & Cheney,

Who... somehow found

"Other things to do."

And so - I guess?

THEY just didn't LOVE their country

QUITE as much as did - say, the OVER

Represented # of black kids

From the Ghettos?

LOL.

[ August 29, 2007, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[jon_j_rambo]

@targul --- Are you that stupid? First the KMart scandal, the garbage at Matrix, and now this? Desert Dave has it right on. Far as the "Military Kids" joining. The majority barely graduated high school. In the old days, judges gave guilty defendents a choice many times, join the military or goto prison. Far as the pay, don't forget the 3 hots & a cot. The money ain't much, but if you got nowhere to sleep & nothing to eat, it beats the soup kitchen.

@Desert Dave --- Another classic! You're on a run, enjoy it!

[targul]

Dave, yes mostly poor men and women join the military but certainly not for the money. They join for the benefits and honor when they complete their terms I know that was important to me. I didnt even know the pay when I joined but I did know that I could go to college when I finished.

My family was not rich but we were doing okay. I am not black or another minority so I do not fall into your norm. When I initially entered the military I rarely saw black soldiers.

I saw more and more blacks as the draft brought those men to Vietnam.

This may have all changed now. I have been out of the service for 30 years but I still believe those men willing to sacrifice there lives for there country do it for more then pay. I doubt you can get alot of people to die simply for money since it is so difficult to spend after you die.

[SeaMonkey]

Like I said guys, the motivation doesn't matter, it is the selection process. We are not all born with the absolute clarity of the specifics of eachs' contribution.

Sometimes your perceived selection is not actually yours. Sometimes others have an ability to see more in yourself than you do, but it is very important that you harmonize with the process.

Intuition is important, but be careful it is not a product of a conditioned environment. Much is always amiss, much more is melodious, depending on the tune your listening to.

The drumbeat incites people to different levels of actions, be aware that it can also numb your reasoning of the significance of past events and the posturing for the future.

I want the point of progress to remain sharp, honed by the best at their chosen tasks. Doesn't matter how they got there, that is for their contemplation, only matters the intent of their journey.

[Yogi]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

THEY just didn't LOVE their country

QUITE as much as did - say, the OVER

Represented # of black kids

From the Ghettos?

LOL.

This post is not in disgreement DD, but I do often watch politicians talk in similar vain suggesting that minorities are doing most of the sacrificing.

It certainly makes sense that a number of poor people (of any race) would choose the miltiary as way out and/or up depending how the individual looks at it. I think this can be shown to have been true for many many cultures and throughout history. Perhaps it is a flaw in our human nature, or just the logic that if you don't have to go, many won't. Short of instituting required service, draft, or an extreme threat to existence, etc. (not too popular an idea) it will probably continue to remain a factor.

Round my parts, TV always announces and shows pictures of the soldiers who have lost their life. The vast majority in this state have been white. Not all were poor.

I'm sure that most all of us join in recognizing the service and sacrifice of all our military, regardless of race, sex, religion, financial status, etc.

[targul]

I'm sure that most all of us join in recognizing the service and sacrifice of all our military, regardless of race, sex, religion, financial status, etc.

Absolutely!!!! I do not support this war in anyway but those soldiers deserve and receive my full respect and support.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yeah, they do join for money. If you're dead broke, barely finished high school, and the only hope is working at the 5 & dime...the Army offers you something relatively better. It ain't post Harvard Business School CFO position, but it's better than dealing quarter ounce potbags & quarter pounders.

Miliary dudes get free school after, not a bad deal. I had to drive a truck while in college to pay for mine.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Iron Ranger:

'Mercenary's' date to the 100 years war. When the French and English were taking a break all the profecianl troops still needed to make a living; so they started working for other.. for pay.

Oh it dates to long, long, long before then - Greek mercenaries fightign for the Persians against Alexander the Great for example.

[Baron]

Desert Dave,

We agree on most of the issues you have mentioned in your post. I want thank you for your family’s service, and for your service. It is my belief that it is because of men like you and our fathers that this country continues to thrive and prosper.

Your disgust with the situation our country finds itself in is very apparent and I share it. You point out that 70% of all officers will admit they are Republican – and I ask so what? Isn’t that one of the liberties they are fighting for? I’d also point out that Congress did give approval for action in Iraq – that is a fact (Public Law 107–243 passed the Senate on 10-11-2002 by a vote of 77-23) that is often overlooked.

The problem as I see it is that there is nothing in place for Congress to stop a war short of using the checkbook. IMHO none of those “rich” self serving individuals will ever do anything that will jeopardize their positions and risk losing the power that intoxicates them. So come next November I will not be voting for any incumbent. That is the biggest hypocrisy in our election process. We Americans rage and vent and send our representatives back election after election (our representatives are fine it is all the other states that have bad ones!) The people in Washington work for us and until we get enough people interested in what is going on in this country and they take the time out of their busy schedules to go vote, we will continue down the “easy” road. Want to see change? Get a law passed holding elections on the weekend – nah it would never happen. There would be too many people who work that would vote and the handouts might just stop.

Rambo - @targul --- Are you that stupid? First the KMart scandal, the garbage at Matrix, and now this? Desert Dave has it right on. Far as the "Military Kids" joining. The majority barely graduated high school. In the old days, judges gave guilty defendants a choice many times, join the military or goto prison. Far as the pay, don't forget the 3 hots & a cot. The money ain't much, but if you got nowhere to sleep & nothing to eat, it beats the soup kitchen.

As far as the standards for new recruits declining you are sadly misinformed maybe you should go talk to a recruiter . People are turned away for being overweight. I lost 45lbs at Paris Island and if I tried to enlist in any of the services today I’d be turned away for being fat. You need a waiver to get in with a tattoo! How does determine with how good a soldier will be? Today’s military is the best educated best trained in this country’s history that is also a fact. I like the idea of 2 years public service but I would not want to see them in the service. If they don’t want to be there they will just create problems and they will not be effective in anything they do. In Vietnam 2.6 million soldiers served in Country between 1965 and 1973. Of these only 656K were draftees out of 1.7 million that were drafted. So 25% of the forces in Vietnam were draftees and they accounted for a little over 30% of the combat deaths. Yeah I’d say sending people to war who are drafted is a recipe for casualties.

Desert Dave - I still say your definition of a mercenary is a stretch, might as well call all wives whores using such a broad definition. I don’t believe anybody would agree with that statement but a lawyer could probably prove it correct in court. Now that I’ve ranted on for so long let me end by saying this -

Thank you and welcome home brother. If you ever get to the Old Dominion I’ll have a steak and a cold frothy beverage waiting for you just give me a holler 

[Baron]

By the way exploiting the poor kids from the Ghetto is just propaganda:

http://www.vvof.org/factsvnv.htm

86.8% of the men who were killed as a result of hostile action were Caucasian; 12.1% (5,711) were black; 1.1% belonged to other races.

14.6% (1,530) of non-combat deaths were among blacks.

34% of blacks who enlisted volunteered for the combat arms.

Overall, blacks suffered 12.5% of the deaths in Vietnam at a time when the percentage of blacks of military age was 13.5% of the total population.

88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasian; 10.6% (275,000) were black; 1% belonged to other races.

The one argument that DD puts forward that the cold statistics prove is that more of the less well off serve as opposed to the "rich" and privledged. Since the majority of the Country is not "rich" I hardly find it surprising that the "rich" serve is less numbers.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Baron --- The kids out of high school going into the military as grunts are NOT the smartest compared to the rest. I never said "hoodrats" were the only ones joining. Just said the brightest are going. Of course they are better trained today with weapons & computers than the dirty dozen, but that's not due to the grunts knowledge, it's the military's knowledge. Don't let anybody kid you, somebody is still peeling those potatoes, mopping floors, and filling shoes.

Far as "rich kids" not serving in 'Nam. You kidding me Pyle? A jelly donut in your footlocker? Do you know what the selection process was?

The stats are BS. They don't say who was in the front lines. In probably counts doctors & lawyers.

"We're going go up their & set things straight! I reckon so" --- from the movie classic, Outlaw Josey Wales.

[Baron]

JJR

You are the perfect example of the "Left Coast". When confronted with facts you respond with emotions. That is the same sort of reaction that led this country into Iraq. Ignore the facts and do what feels good. It is symptomatic of this country at large. Nobody is accountable for their actions anymore. Reminds me of the Kindergarden classes at school. Come to think of it our Congress acts in much the same way.

If the facts are so skewed as you suggest then explain to me this - If these poor "Hood Rats" as you call them were serving in the combat arms in such great numbers why is their percentage of casulties so small? Hmmm makes a rational person wonder.Do the math college boy. Put that good college education to use and do some research.

And yes my jelly donut hating friend obesity will keep you out of the service. Pyle would not even be shipped to boot in todays military.

[jon_j_rambo]

What do I care? Vietname is OVER. That mission is OVER, Rambo. It was 40 years ago. Black, White, Rich, Poor...

Are you saved? Is everybody in your family saved? Is your neighbor saved? Are you enemies saved?

You want percentages? Here you go. 100%, 99%, 98%, 97%, 96%, 95%...

What's your point? What are you mumbling about?

People goto war, people die. It's that simple. I could careless about Vietnam & the 1960's, I wasn't even alive.

Far as your stats, far as being there...all I know, if you got money in this world, you have advantage. I've seen Platoon, Charlie Sheen enlisted. I've seen Hamburger Hill,"You see a silverspoon in my whitey mouth?".

What's your point? What are you trying to get me to believe?

Please explain your argument instead of just giving me some link & expected me to have ESP.

-Legend

[Desert Dave]

By the way exploiting the poor kids from the Ghetto is just propaganda:

Pardon, but what ACTUALLY happened is this:

In the early stages of the war, there WERE

IN FACT,

MUCH higher casualties for the blacks

Than for the whites.

THEN -> a "critical mass" of influential

Black leaders commenced to complain

About this very FACT.

What the Pentagon/D.C Establishment

Did at that point,

Was... ORDER the field Officers

To "pull back" the blacks

(... and, concomittently, draft AND send

over the seas, FEWER of them)

And send to the front,

The whites.

There is NO doubt about this,

You can find it any historical account.

Of this I am ABSOLUTELY convinced.

It ain't no propaganda, my friend.

The one argument that DD puts forward that the cold statistics prove is that more of the less well off serve as opposed to the "rich" and privledged. Since the majority of the Country is not "rich" I hardly find it surprising that the "rich" serve is less numbers.

When I said "rich kids,"

I meant... upper AND middle class, ah,

IOW - anyone not below

The "poverty line."

Most of the deferments

Due to that "2S" I have mentioned.

[... curious aside: the students most

vehemently protested - then; now, there IS

no draft, what protest do you

notice on Main Street? LOL!]

Some due to "family Doctors" being

Submissive when the Mother

Would "emotively" argue that

The debilitation in question,

Say the lingering sty on the eye,

Surely was, well, debilitating.

Some due to "unholy influence"

With a Draft Board selector.

Some due to the lawyered up kid

Who could convince the Board

That they were "essential" somehow

Either,

To their "family business,"

Or, no matter how tortured

The connection... to the "war effort."

Some due to self-inflicted injury.

Some due to having sufficient "wits

About themselves,"

They could convince a Board member

That they were "gay" or

O/W hindered, IE - "depressed"

Or "psycho," and etc.

The list could be even longer,

But I believe I've made the point.

Those who COULD muster some sort

Of "excuse," did so

With alarming - even, disarming,

Alacrity.

See what I mean?

The poor kids HAD NO devises,

No sleight of hand,

No access to lawyers or doctors

Or much of anything for that matter.

What they had was a sturdy body

And, apparently,

A greater love of Country? and

Stronger obligation?

To do what was "honorable,"

Even if - accidentally so.

BTW: I have no sympathy for those

Who ran away and hid from it all, say,

To Canada or Sweden.

Nor for the suddenly "conscientiously

objecting" sort of Cowards.

You either "fight the fight" of yer Life

Whereat you LIVE, or you die

In a particular sort of way, way

Down deep in yer... insides.

You point out that 70% of all officers will admit they are Republican – and I ask so what? Isn’t that one of the liberties they are fighting for?

The figure was ~ 80%

When I was in (... same comparative

research study) it was... 50/50

Dems and Republicans.

Now, that kind of drastic change DOES worry... me.

NOT because it's a change toward

Republicans, but, instead,

That it is a significant change

In and of itself.

Military Officers are not elected, obviously,

And, after all, it may well be

A temporary representation.

Nonetheless, I liked it better when

It was 50/50.

I’d also point out that Congress did give approval for action in Iraq – that is a fact (Public Law 107–243 passed the Senate on 10-11-2002 by a vote of 77-23) that is often overlooked.

"Resolutions" are one thing.

Outright "declarations of War,"

Are an ENTIRELY different thing.

Since WW2, we have had these VERY flimsy

Rationales for... WAR.

U.N. decrees, Gulf of Tonkin Resolution,

WHATEVER that latest "escape responsibility"

THING was WRT Iraq,

Well,

I am yet going to go with the Constitution:

ONLY Congress can declare WAR.

Doesn't say, for instance,

"A piece of paper with vague scribbling on it

will satisfy."

See the difference?

____________________________

I am a kind of hyprocrite, I admit.

Notso long ago I had said:

"Time to get OVER it."

Apparently I haven't yet.

Getting closer, though.

Here's hoping I'll finally CLOSE

That chapter in the VERY short

Book of my life.

I ain't wantin' to go to my grave

STILL fretting about

That relatively small # of pages

In the Book.

Which has a beginning, and an end.

A front cover, and, yep,

A back cover as well.

[ August 30, 2007, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[jon_j_rambo]

@Baron --- Far as Iraq, guess what, Saddam is dead. It's as a simple as that. We are taking the fight to the Middle East before it comes here. We are in a race. A race where the bad guys want to blow us up with a suitcase nuke. One suitcase nuke in New York at the Stock Exchange, and everybody in this country will be broke, instantly. The markets will topple, 401ks, pensions, retirements, the whole system will collaspe. Yeah, we'll survive, but all that dough on paper will be bye-bye. Stock Market will dumped from the Dow's 13,200 to about 5,000...on a major attack. Life will change forever on this planet if the USA gets nuked. Why? Because us Capitalists will have to quit "playing make money" and will have to dedicate life to survival & a "real crusade".

Quit crying about the war in Iraq. These bastards in the Middle East or wherever the Hell (Heaven) they are, gotta be found. It's just like sweeping the floor, sometimes you gotta just flip over the furniture in order to get the job done.

-Legend

[Desert Dave]

... sometimes you gotta just flip over the furniture in order to get the job done.

Well, jjr,

Should you merely do that,

Wouldn't the bottom parts

Of yer, doubtless - stick & cloth furniture,

YET be in the way

Of yer l-o-o-o-o-n-g time

NEEDED... sweeping?

Actually,

And seriously, you oughta start

Yer very own blog.

You could SWEEP away ANY sorta fog or smog,

WRT - doggone near anything!

War and peace.

Hot-rod motors leaking 40 weight grease.

The good and the bad.

What's wack and ugly too!

What's truly cool, and better

What is - phat today, but tomorrow

Gone again! Kinda low-brow fad!

You could BE... a whole world! Renowned

Legend.

Not merely!

A one to be found rending

And a'sundering some innocent

War gamers on a lonely outpost

Sorta forum! :cool:

[... as I've said before - write

that book! If Paris Hilton

can do it, having ONLY lived - what?

just the 21 years? So can you! ]

[targul]

What is wrong with this board? Are you guys crazy or what? I say I respect the troops and and there sacrifice and Baron replies am I stupid.

And if the men who go to war and fight are not high school grads does it matter? Not a lick to me. If they committed some minor crime but are given the option to correct it by joining the service and they do does that make them bad. Hell no.

This whole crap notion that blacks and poor are the only ones who join is simply not true. The concept that people will sacrifice everything for a meal and a small check are not true. Those men are brave, they are whom we have depended on war after war. They are why we can write these disgusting ideas on this form.

I do not support this war in anyway. But those men willing to die to keep me free I support completely without reservation. I am an American who has contributed my share and to those who talk all this talk and havent walked the walk I say join up take a few bullets then tell me how these men are nothing but low lifes of our society.

[Hubert Cater]

targul, if you read it carefully it was actually Rambo, I think Baron just didn't use the previous post quotes very well in his general reply.

Either way, keep this civilized guys or I'll gladly lock it down... and Rambo watch your tone or you are gone and this time for good.

[targul]

Baron if I misspoke I apologize but I am intolerant of people not supporting our men in combat. Been there and didnt like it.

[Baron]

Targul,

I for one appreciate your service and would never call you stupid for your beliefs or service. I apologize for my lack posting skills I've heard about the reception the Vietnam Vets received and it is so alien to everything I've experienced that I can't truely imagine what it must have been like. You are the kind of man that I'd want fighting by my side.

Desert Dave,

You are correct in the beginning there was a larger percentage of minorities in combat. As you pointed out this was dealt with and at the end of the day those exploited minorities did no more percentage wise than did anybody else did except - die.They were slightly below what should have been expected - who knows maybe it was because they were better fighters?. So it is a fallacy to say that they were exploited more than anybody else. As far as being a hypocrite I certainly should not be throwing any stones! And I apologize for using the word in this instance.

You are also correct in that the congressional vote was a resolution authorizing the use of force. I don’t believe you can declare war on an idea – can you? If Congress did not want the US in Iraq they didn’t have to pass the resolution did it? So I’m certainly not giving up on the Constitution. I’d say it is working exactly the way it was designed to work. The point I was trying to make was the architects of the Constitution did not see a situation like this happening. Who are we going to sit down at a table with and sign a peace treaty, and idea?

As far as the Officer Corps being 80% Republican there is a very simple explanation. Most of the Democratic Party has gone so far left that it has left behind those Officers that used to be Democrats. It’s like the choice we face for President, in my experience I end up voting for the candidate that I feel will do the least amount of harm since the candidate that I’d like to vote for doesn’t stand a chance of being elected. I used to call myself a Republican but the Republicans we have today hold very few of the core beliefs that I do judging by their actions.

Rambo,

I never said I was against the war. What I’m so pissed off about is the execution of the war. I agree with you fully that the war will follow us home here. H*ll It slapped us in the face on Sept. 11! Guess what? It is going to happen here again. I don’t care where we are fighting in the world. We have a government that won’t secure our own borders so using the argument that fighting there will keep them from here just does not hold water.

[jon_j_rambo]

Okay, back to group hug.

@Targul --- You're right about something.

@Baron --- You're right, the borders are a joke.

@Myself --- You're good looking.

Everything is love,

-Legend