OT: TRAVEL REPORT to Auschwitz/Plaszow!!!

[Tancred]

The figures for Germany are completely wrong.

New research by Ruediger Overmans, an official researcher approved by the German government, came up with a total figure of 5,618,000 German dead servicemen - around one-third of all those who served and 40% of those born in the peak recruitment birth years of 1920-25. (By 'German' it is also intended to include Austria and ethnic German areas outside the Reich, like the Sudetenland). The figures below fail to include a large number of servicemen that were not accounted for, for various reasons.

The real number of dead German civilians is: 700,000 killed by allied bombing raids, 100,000 killed by crossfire during the invasion by the Western allies, 1 million killed by the Soviet invasion of Germany. On top of that, another 1.2 million were killed in population expulsions following the end of hostilities. Last, but not least, it is estimated that 200,000 to 300,000 German women died following rapes by Soviet soldiers.

So, when looking at all the figures, the ghastly fact is that around 8.8-8.9 million Germans and Europeans of German ethnicity were killed in WW2 and its immediate aftermath.

So much for the suggestion that the Germans did not suffer enough for having made the mistake of choosing Hitler as their leader!

The fatality figures for the USSR seem fairly accurate, but need to be placed in perspective. Many Soviet civilians were not killed by the Germans, but were executed by the NKVD (forerunner of the KGB) for suspected treason, or deported to Siberia where most did not survive. Entire populations, like the Crimean Tatars, suffered this fate. It has been estimated that around half of all Soviet civilian deaths in WW2 can be attributed to reprisals by their government.

As a footnote, one million Soviet prisoners of war were persuaded by the Nazis to join their cause. Many of these, led by the defector General Vlasov, fought alongside the Germans in the last year of the war and ended up beiing captured by the Red Army. Those who managed to surrender to the Western allies were disgracefully turned over to the Soviets, in the knowledge that they faced certain death. Infact, very few indeed survived Soviet capture. Many were immediately shot and others sent to Siberia, with minimal chance of surviving.

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Here's the casualty numbers from WW-2:

http://www.worldwar-2.net/casualties/world-war-2-casualties-index.htm

[ November 18, 2005, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Tancred ]

[JerseyJohn]

Tancred,

Your figures for German loss of life seem reliable enough to me and were about what I thought they would have been in reality as opposed to on paper.

Regarding the extermination of races and ethnic groups, the problem is, once you kill off one, then another, and throw in someone else, it becomes difficult to stop. Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Jehova Wittnesses, Communists ... So who would be next? Only the Slavs that the nazis didn't want to use as slaves? And when they were finished as slaves it was off to a crematoria. Others to be sent beyond the Urals? That was another way of saying extermination, that's all, just as the Jews were to be resettled. Sure, as ashes.

I'm neither defending nor condemning the Germans. The Holocaust is not unique in history and isn't even unique in the twentieth century. In fact, it wasn't even unique to the first half of the twentieth century as the Ottoman Turks were determined to wipe out the Armenians; they killed over a million of them in much less organized circumstances and without the benefit of Death Camps, they just killed them anywhere they happened to see them.

As for Hitler's plan for eastward expansion, which he fully outlined in Mein Kampf, what is there to defend about it? The idea was to strike east into the wide open spaces to plunder, enslave and ultimately kill off the rightful inhabitants. Is the defense that the real intent was to only kill some while enslaving the rest?

That's some wonderful distinction. Duly noted.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Tancred:

The fatality figures for the USSR seem fairly accurate, but need to be placed in perspective. Many Soviet civilians were not killed by the Germans, but were executed by the NKVD (forerunner of the KGB) for suspected treason, or deported to Siberia where most did not survive. Entire populations, like the Crimean Tatars, suffered this fate. It has been estimated that around half of all Soviet civilian deaths in WW2 can be attributed to reprisals by their government.

WHO has estimated that half the deaths were due to reprisals?

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Tancred:

Actually the Russians and Poles did reopen many of the old Nazi camps and filled them with German civilians. Read the book by Alfred de Zayas.

When Soviet armies entered Germany they raped around 2 million German women, around 10-15% of whom are estimated to have subsequently committed suicide. A monstrous barbarity to rival anything by the Germans. And, in addition to that, around 1 million German civilians, including babies, women and old people, were killed by Soviet gunfire as they attempted to escape the approaching Red Army. Some 21,000 German civilians also died on transport ships like the Wilhelm Gustloff and the Goya that were ruthlessly sunk by Soviet submarines, in defiance of international law.

A further 1.2-1.5 million ethnic Germans were killed and/or murdered as they were expelled from former German and German populated territories after the end of hositlities.

It's true that AUschwitz were used to inhabit german POW:s at the end of war until it became a museum.

Two questions:

1. What source you reffering to that claims 2 million german women were raped?

2. "A further 1.2-1.5 million ethnic Germans were killed and/or murdered as they were expelled from former German and German populated territories after the end of hositlities."

what source?

[JerseyJohn]

It's documented that there were thousands of rapes and murders by Soviet troops, especially in Berlin. An uncle of mine who fought through France and into Germany told me once about American G. I.s he served with who he considered criminals because they not only raped German women at every turn, but also murdered German men and boys whenever they were able to do so unobserved.

The thing is this. Germany, not the German people, but Germany as an entity, set off on a deliberately brutal and vicious war right from the first day in September of 1939. Decencies and legalities meant nothing, especially in the east. That continued without letup till the day they were finally driven out of the territories they'd occupied.

Was the war supposed to suddenly become gentlemanly because it rolled back to German soil? Why was there any reason to expect the Soviets to treat the Germans any better than they'd treated the Russians, Poles, Jews, Gypsies and all the others they either didn't like or saw as subhumans?

Germany spent five years planting the seeds. During the sixth year they themselves became the harvest. I don't take any joy in saying that, it's simply the way it happened.

Rape, pillage and slaughter were returned with rape, pillage and slaughter.

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

nice link jjr ... the amount for USSR is unbelievable ... and think Stalin was better at killing his own people than Adolf ... add another 20M during Stalin's era and you come up with a neat 40M in just 2-3 decades or something ... seems that the true Holocaust was in Russia, the jewish one was just a sideshow ... well, at least this is what the figures would tell to an uninformed person ...

And we call ourselves educated and civilized beings ... can you believe that? For thousands and thousands of years ppl have been killing eachother but the last century was such a vulgar display of true evil!!! We developed the technology just to up the death toll? To be led by sick ****s who can't think anything else than how to kill more ppl? Check today's facts ... same situation albeit less organized than in the 40s. Everytime you turn on the tv, the same thing: murder, death, kill.

Seems these are the fundamental values of the mankind ...

Question is, what is the solution to all this?

Morale, Ethics and Faith or... Decadence, Greed and Chaos?

Another question is, what do we individuals do on our ordinary days to help steering the world into the right direction?

How does our way of life affect our society and how does that society affect the world?

[ November 19, 2005, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Tancred]

Why don't you read more instead of asking 'what source?'. The sources are there if you look for them!

This is THE key reference book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312121598/102-7014301-3923307?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance

And this one is also a 'must read' on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0967569109/102-7014301-3923307?v=glance&n=283155&%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

John Sack is a Jew, so he has NO reason to be apologetic on behalf of the Germans.

And then:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1551681919/102-7014301-3923307?v=glance&n=283155&%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

This particular book explains the disgraceful treatement of German prisoners by the American and French military authorities. One million prisoners died of starvation and neglect! By comparison, less than 400,000 Germans died even in the notoriously brutal Soviet POW camp system. Eisenhower was never brought to account for this.

And the 'best' (in the most repulsive sense of the word) till last:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316640700/102-7014301-3923307?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

After WW2 the infamous Morgenthau Plan was secretly implemented by the Allied governments. The result was that an excess of over 5.5 million civilian deaths over normal peacetime figures occurred in Germany between May 1945 and 1949. This being in addition to the 2.2 million civilian deaths due to expulsion from the Eastern territories!

So, in total, some 14-15 million Germans died either during the conflict or as a direct result of it in the ten year period 1939-49. Had the war not happened the population of Germany today would be over 100 million.

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tancred:

Actually the Russians and Poles did reopen many of the old Nazi camps and filled them with German civilians. Read the book by Alfred de Zayas.

When Soviet armies entered Germany they raped around 2 million German women, around 10-15% of whom are estimated to have subsequently committed suicide. A monstrous barbarity to rival anything by the Germans. And, in addition to that, around 1 million German civilians, including babies, women and old people, were killed by Soviet gunfire as they attempted to escape the approaching Red Army. Some 21,000 German civilians also died on transport ships like the Wilhelm Gustloff and the Goya that were ruthlessly sunk by Soviet submarines, in defiance of international law.

A further 1.2-1.5 million ethnic Germans were killed and/or murdered as they were expelled from former German and German populated territories after the end of hositlities.

It's true that AUschwitz were used to inhabit german POW:s at the end of war until it became a museum.

Two questions:

1. What source you reffering to that claims 2 million german women were raped?

2. "A further 1.2-1.5 million ethnic Germans were killed and/or murdered as they were expelled from former German and German populated territories after the end of hositlities."

what source? </font>

[Tancred]

Kuniworth,

Again, I suggest you read more widely.

This little primer is suggested as an introduction to the Socialist paradise that the UK and USA were allied to in WW2:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674076087/102-7014301-3923307?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

Although the book covers Communism in all its nefarious global manifestations, there are large sections in this book devoted to blowing the myth that the Communist Russians were heroic liberators in WW2 etc. The sooner this garbage is buried, the better.

"....The verdict: communism was responsible for between 85 million and 100 million deaths in the century..." Uncle Joe Stalin was responsible for over half of these, by the way.

I also suggest you read the books by Nikolai Tolstoy - difficult to find nowadays. Tolstoy is a direct descendant of the Russian writer and one of the first writers to tell the truth about the way in which anti-Communist Soviet citizens were betrayed by the allies and turned over to the Soviets and certain death.

There is a good account of the Vlasov army here: http://www.feldgrau.com/rvol.html

By October 1944 900,000 Soviet citizens were fighting FOR the Germans WITHIN the German armed forces! This despite the harsh and brutal nature of the German occupation. Even Himmler and Hitler were powerless to stop this mass recruitment of former Soviet servicemen by the Wehrmacht.

Finally, let me leave you with this:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

An excellent, academically researched listing of Soviet murders from 1917 to 1987. A total of 61.9 million victims, including 13 million during 1941-45, the period during which the USSR fought Germany.

By comparison with Stalin, Hitler was an amateur.

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tancred:

The fatality figures for the USSR seem fairly accurate, but need to be placed in perspective. Many Soviet civilians were not killed by the Germans, but were executed by the NKVD (forerunner of the KGB) for suspected treason, or deported to Siberia where most did not survive. Entire populations, like the Crimean Tatars, suffered this fate. It has been estimated that around half of all Soviet civilian deaths in WW2 can be attributed to reprisals by their government.

WHO has estimated that half the deaths were due to reprisals? </font>

[Tancred]

Kuniworth,

Again, I suggest you read more widely.

This little primer is suggested as an introduction to the Socialist paradise that the UK and USA were allied to in WW2:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674076087/102-7014301-3923307?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

Although the book covers Communism in all its nefarious global manifestations, there are large sections in this book devoted to blowing the myth that the Communist Russians were heroic liberators in WW2 etc. The sooner this garbage is buried, the better.

"....The verdict: communism was responsible for between 85 million and 100 million deaths in the century..." Uncle Joe Stalin was responsible for over half of these, by the way.

I also suggest you read the books by Nikolai Tolstoy - difficult to find nowadays. Tolstoy is a direct descendant of the Russian writer and one of the first writers to tell the truth about the way in which anti-Communist Soviet citizens were betrayed by the allies and turned over to the Soviets and certain death.

There is a good account of the Vlasov army here: http://www.feldgrau.com/rvol.html

By October 1944 900,000 Soviet citizens were fighting FOR the Germans WITHIN the German armed forces! This despite the harsh and brutal nature of the German occupation. Even Himmler and Hitler were powerless to stop this mass recruitment of former Soviet servicemen by the Wehrmacht.

Finally, let me leave you with this:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

An excellent, academically researched listing of Soviet murders from 1917 to 1987. A total of 61.9 million victims, including 13 million during 1941-45, the period during which the USSR fought Germany.

This section deals with Poland's ethnic cleanisng of Germans after WW2:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP7.HTM

Basically, all these hideous brutalities need to be placed in perpspective. Though Hitler was an amoral nihilist, he was also a muddle headed and emotional dreamer. Stalin, by contrast, was very much a realist and a very capable administrator, as well as being utterly cold hearted and ruthless to the maximum degree.

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

Originally posted by Tancred:

The fatality figures for the USSR seem fairly accurate, but need to be placed in perspective. Many Soviet civilians were not killed by the Germans, but were executed by the NKVD (forerunner of the KGB) for suspected treason, or deported to Siberia where most did not survive. Entire populations, like the Crimean Tatars, suffered this fate. It has been estimated that around half of all Soviet civilian deaths in WW2 can be attributed to reprisals by their government.

WHO has estimated that half the deaths were due to reprisals?

[Liam]

Not sure if this was commented on but you reap what you sowe? You awakened the beast in the Reds, really comperatively the Germans and Russians payed the price. 10 million Germans and 20 million Russians though the Poles, Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, retarded people etc... they really didn't fall into any great scheme...

It is true what is said, their will was broken down. I suppose to us Americans have a very Nationalistic spirit, we'd fight harder than the Germans or Russians fought... Look at Revolutionary War or 1812... way outnumbered, our goose cooked we defeated some really wild odds and would against any foe I assure.. The Russians are near rivals in the last 2 centuries in warfare...

The Jews were toast.. They were as what did that movie say about Adolf Hitler back from about 20 or 30 years ago??? "Russia has it's intellecutals. The United States has it's blacks and Germany we have our Jews."

That is pretty much how Hitler saw things and during that period, I'm know for a fact Stalin would've mass murdered 6 million Intellectuals what held the USA back from killing 6 million blacks is that we are a bit kinder than the other two. Not much though. Fine line between us and them and some of the early ideas of sterilizations came from American sterilization of Negroids in Virginia! Germany then proceeded to do it to their own small Negroid population..

Welcome to the Ideology of the early 20th century, not much has changed. It really sucks for you to be a Minority or an undesirable in the wrong place at the wrong time. Fighting back to the death if you know if you can fathom is your best bet to the death.. Kill 1 Nazi per 1000 of you, worth it IMO... add that up if they're Colonels?

To boot: Germany would've mass murdered many Slavs and Russians to clear for Leibenstrom, no evidence to point any other way. They wanted a good amount acreage of Russian, Belarussian land to resettle, Teutonic Viking sort of impression... Hitler had this thing about Living Space for his Master Race descended from Gods from Tibet

Originally posted by Tancred:

Actually the Russians and Poles did reopen many of the old Nazi camps and filled them with German civilians. Read the book by Alfred de Zayas.

When Soviet armies entered Germany they raped around 2 million German women, around 10-15% of whom are estimated to have subsequently committed suicide. A monstrous barbarity to rival anything by the Germans. And, in addition to that, around 1 million German civilians, including babies, women and old people, were killed by Soviet gunfire as they attempted to escape the approaching Red Army. Some 21,000 German civilians also died on transport ships like the Wilhelm Gustloff and the Goya that were ruthlessly sunk by Soviet submarines, in defiance of international law.

A further 1.2-1.5 million ethnic Germans were killed and/or murdered as they were expelled from former German and German populated territories after the end of hositlities.

The Western allies did nothing to alleviate the plight of these unfortunates.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

@Kuni --- If I was a Russian General & saw that stuff back in '44-'45 first hand...well, you'd see today a stack of German clothes, glasses, & blond hair right beside the furnance. The Buntas got off easy.

It's really amazing, now Germany has the #2 economy in the world! Just 1.5 generations later, what is Japan #3? Germany & Japan are like a best friends in the political sense...well, I guess they had to partner up with the USA or become a fence post to the Iron Curtin forever. We'll see how well they remain friends when things get tough. I wonder when Germany/Japan will get a military? Our tax money is really helps their economy in the form of defense, bases, etc.

Anybody got the numbers on what the Russians did to Germans? Anybody got the numbers what the USA/UK did? Didn't the Russians lose 1,000,000 men at the taking of Berlin? Were SS units really better fighters in real combat or is it just myth?

"Here's our chance. We should blow up every bridge, every road, & every building. Then send over a couple of buffalo & let them start like we did" --- Charles Bronson in the movie classic, Battle of the Bulge.

"You wannabee a Legend, kid? They you gotta step up when it's big" --- Jon J. Rambo

</font>

[Lars]

There is no reason to suppose that the Nazi government would have killed so many people. This is pure conjecture, based on captured documents that discussed these ideas. This is no proof.

Actually the Russians and Poles did reopen many of the old Nazi camps and filled them with German civilians. Read the book by Alfred de Zayas.

Hey, Tancred, care to square those two statements?

Sheesh, neo-Nazi's, so tiresome…

[Kuniworth]

Tancred;

You talk about rapes of innocent women and how this monstrous barbary could "rival anything of the germans". Well can you please tell us all how many women were raped in the soviet union 1941-44? No? You mix the red army attrocities committed mainly round four months(jan-march, may 1945) and then compare it to the germans without knowledge of the opposite. You state between 2-2,5 million raped but no one really knows. WHhat we know is that Gerhard Reichling estimate it to be 1,9 million number of raped women. The number could be higher as people were raped more than once but we just can't tell about it.

The opinion that half of the russians killed during ww2 were due to their own actions is remarkable. Im sure in that you count the russian unwillingness to evacuate cities as a part of this which is not honest to do. The executions of NKVD you talk about is nothing can explain this at all.

ANd while you are at accusing the western allies for disgraceful behaviour against POW:s, can you please tell us how many russian POW:s died in german camps? Saying that half the soviet losses in ww2 was due to own fault is not even correct quoting your own sources which says 19 million dead from the war or occupation.

Finally Tancred can you tell us what you think of the deatch camps?

I like to know;

- How many jews were killed by the nazis in your opinion?

[ November 21, 2005, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[jon_j_rambo]

@Tancred --- Dude, you need to find some new books to read & get some new sources. The United States rebuilt Germany & Japan. You really think we were out to exterminate them? Give me a break. Germany has the #2 economy now in the world, we even sent Elvis Presley to protect. We continue to conquer with the dollar bill, McDonald's, & the movie industry.

Link this, son:

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkichbineinberliner.html

"Let them come to Berlin" -J.F.K.

"Mr. Gorby, tear down this wall" -Reagan

"Icn Bin Legende" -Me

[Ottosmops]

@ Rambo

Thank you for the link. It's useful for me to learn english and history at the same time.

I think the japanese economy is nearly twice as large as germanys. So Japan is #2 and Germany #3.

"Ich bin eine Legende" would JFK say if he were still alive.

[Liam]

Heh, Japanese and Germans realized that they couldn't conquor the world with Guns, we had the monopoly on that. They had to use VCRs, DVDs, Computers, Automobiles, and other Goodies to sell to us etc... Problem is, China, Taiwan and the rest of East Asia is learning this too. India and the others will become Production Giants in the next 50 to 100 years and probably surpass any of us... Why? Work ethic, discipline, it takes a hard ass to keep on the cutting edge.

[Liam]

Atrocities, War Crimes, Humanity... Welcome to Apes a few thousand years out of the trees folks

That's what you get

What is the difference between us and them at a base level, Survival instinct, that's one in common. We want to screw everything on two legs, just look at the mass Rapes in WW2... The attitude towards another species or clan, Look at WW2 again as an example.

"Baby you and me ain't nothing but Mammals so let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel!"

Get a bit more anarchy in your ethics folks, it's the essence who you are and though shielded by it by your Flag or by your Religion or luck whatever reason once given a gun and a reason you'll likely steep low and that's what History tells us so

[Agent Smith]

You got the bomb.

[Soddball]

I've been reading this thread for the interesting stuff Kuniworth has been posting (something of an epiphany, I believe). I had no idea it would draw a neo-nazi out of the woodwork.

Now normally I wouldn't bother with a piece of racist filth, but one part particularly vexed me, and I felt I should address it.

I shall snip the rest because it's such a disgusting parody of neo-nazism I can't bear to quote it.

Originally posted by Tancred:

Infact I think this idea of a huge massacre highly unlikely. Hitler wanted living space for the German people, and this was the main motivation for the war against Poland and the USSR.

Obviously, this plan entailed the Germanization of a suitable (and willing) minority of the Slav inhabitants and the resettlement of many others across the Urals. A third group would remain as servants/slaves of the German masters. Hitler got his idea from the way the British ruled India.

This is bull****. The British did not rule India in this way and anyone who's read anything about the subject could never claim such a thing. The British 'ruled' less than 1/3 of what is now India, Pakistan, and Burma. The rest was ruled by the nobility which lived there. By 1939, Indian officers duplicated the roles of their white counterparts in the army. Indian officials had the highest roles in the civil service.

Over 2 million Indian soldiers fought for the Allies in World War 2 - the largest volunteer army ever created.

Britain wanted to hang on to India, certainly. But it put in place a structure which allowed a (very grudging) gradual transition of power over many years.

This had nothing in common with the violent oppression and annihilation of the 'untermenschen' by the Nazis.

Since you are so keen on recommending books to others, allow me to point you to a couple:

Norman Davies - Warsaw: The Rising '44.

Antony Beevor - Stalingrad.

God, I hate revisionists.

Edit: I just read his profile. He claims to live in the UK. How ****ing disgusting is that? Get out of my country. There's no place for racists here.

[JerseyJohn]

Soddball,

Your medication, calm down!

All other things aside, no one will ever completely sort out the events in Europe when the Third Reich was crumbling. Every time I read an account of it the figures are always different. Anyone who tries to justify any of this by juggling figures is on the wrong track. As for who the nazis were or weren't trying to emulate --that's another mess, no point getting worked up over it. Their reasoning lost me when I learned 25 million Poles were slated for extinction because Hitler felt they were too inferior to remain in existence. Who's their neighbor? How different can the two groups be that one of them needs to be exterminated. Very strange reasoning.

As for driving out racists; it's never going to happen regardless of where you happen to live. You know all this of course, but I hate to see anyone getting upset over it.

[Liam]

Sodd

Half limey here too mate. Neo-Nazis have been have a ressurgence as of late. In USA, the riots in the early 90s in LA and the intregation of whites and other races that usually wouldn't be living together has caused much tension. 9/11 has sparked this tension off to all time high, giving the Neo-Nazis and other groups who generally do not term themselves fuel to say, "I hate you." To point fingers, to do everything it is they ever wanted to do and say anything as well. Now all you have to do is sign you name on a dotted line and you can goto the Sand and kill what many consider modern day "degenerate races"

They consider us the Infidel... Though the Arabs are a stark contrast to the Holocaust... Let us all face the facts, Hitler wanted Super Germany... Superimposed over half of European Russia and Slavs, Poles, any anything else in the way if it wasn't Germanic in appearance slav labor and then off to the deathcamp. It's true... Hitler then again could've become even more anal about his vision and his followers could've and wiped off many other races. He did however favour us Limeys, considering our Anglo-Saxon Heritage. English is an Aryan Race.

Hard for many to understand the complexities of Nazism, that era, I watched shows on it, never studied it extensively more of a layman... I know that Hitler borrowed from many many others, his dream was really a passover

So as far as all things are concerned noone would care now if Germany would've won. As history would've been rewritten. We could easily helped the Reds earlier, we could've done more when we aware fully of the Holocaust. I'm certian not everyone was a fool. half as many lives or more could've been saved, at least 1/3rd as many lives if we'd of pushed with no concern for loss of life. Much like the Russians did, but of course Stalin had agenda and it was a bufferzone for a new Soviet Block not to save any damned peoples...

As I said above welcome to what is sadly the Modern World, not so evolved. I think if we study all this and we learn from it and do not pass judgement not even in the most severe case we shall become enlightened. Through enlightenment we'll understand everything. Hatred is merely a fear, and perhaps those who hated are hiding something they fear to show the World... The Nazis in my opinion though many may disagree were a group loosely ill... they had personal fears, failures, they were lacking... Winston had it right, Brandy and Cigars.. Other's had the right ticket. Where you put your energies, and when Germany has placed her Energy somewhere it has come out to do very good and very very bad. So beware mocking a people.. Even the Jews have now shown probably to have one the top ten Military Arsenals in the World... Deadly aye? They show very little pity and very little leeway to those they impose their will upon in Palestine.. Neither do we.. Odd enough the next great world war may stem from the very last one AGAIN! Irony? Arabs and Jews and ourselves in the mix and Badaboom!

Originally posted by Soddball:

I've been reading this thread for the interesting stuff Kuniworth has been posting (something of an epiphany, I believe). I had no idea it would draw a neo-nazi out of the woodwork.

Now normally I wouldn't bother with a piece of racist filth, but one part particularly vexed me, and I felt I should address it.

I shall snip the rest because it's such a disgusting parody of neo-nazism I can't bear to quote it.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tancred:

Infact I think this idea of a huge massacre highly unlikely. Hitler wanted living space for the German people, and this was the main motivation for the war against Poland and the USSR.

Obviously, this plan entailed the Germanization of a suitable (and willing) minority of the Slav inhabitants and the resettlement of many others across the Urals. A third group would remain as servants/slaves of the German masters. Hitler got his idea from the way the British ruled India.

This is bull****. The British did not rule India in this way and anyone who's read anything about the subject could never claim such a thing. The British 'ruled' less than 1/3 of what is now India, Pakistan, and Burma. The rest was ruled by the nobility which lived there. By 1939, Indian officers duplicated the roles of their white counterparts in the army. Indian officials had the highest roles in the civil service.

Over 2 million Indian soldiers fought for the Allies in World War 2 - the largest volunteer army ever created.

Britain wanted to hang on to India, certainly. But it put in place a structure which allowed a (very grudging) gradual transition of power over many years.

This had nothing in common with the violent oppression and annihilation of the 'untermenschen' by the Nazis.

Since you are so keen on recommending books to others, allow me to point you to a couple:

Norman Davies - Warsaw: The Rising '44.

Antony Beevor - Stalingrad.

God, I hate revisionists.

Edit: I just read his profile. He claims to live in the UK. How ****ing disgusting is that? Get out of my country. There's no place for racists here. </font>

[hellraiser]

@Sodball - dude, we're in a democracy of sorts. Being a racist should be an option LOL. After all it is anyone's choice to **** their brains up reading various **** about germans killing only 2 jews during the course of ww2 ...

@Punkred - say there were no 6 million j00z killed by the nazis...say they were only (LOL@only) 2 millions - is 2 millions a happy figure for you? I mean it is ok, right? What's 2 million, nothing ... a lot of them were left breathing, so we shouldn't complain...

Dewd, if those sick ****s had the tools and the time, they would've wiped out any jewish living thing off the face of the earth.

They relied on the ideea: 'no one will ever believe we killed x millions, because this figure is plain not understandable - if we killed 800, well 800 is a figure who tells a lot to every idiot out there...'

OTOH, it is not fair to extend the guilt for these atrocities to everything that's german. Every people in this world have its own sickos and madmen waiting to display their evil talents if the situation is ripe. Unfortunately, back in the 40s, the german sick ****s could get on the top and do it. Next time it could be america's sick ****s' turn, or french, or whatever.

[Desert Dave]

Next time it could be america's sick ****s' turn...

Could be?

LOLOLOL.

(... do ALL bankers in Bucharest

curse so much? LOL! )

Well, we've had our turn.

Many, many, many times.

Are having it, again, just now.

Only 30 years after the last dumb debacle,

Which I know a bit about.

These encrazed cycles seem to be getting

Closer together.

This is worrisome.

Though, should we worry aloud,

We be... publicly called out,

By folks who NEVER volunteered

For Duty, when they had the chance,

As non-patriots.

Boy,

You just gotta laugh.

And laugh and laugh.

Great discussion here with many insights.

So far, I like this one best:

I think if we study all this and we learn from it and do not pass judgement not even in the most severe case we shall become enlightened.

Liam knows things.

Could be a Guru, even.

Rock Stars will come calling.

More thoughts like these?

The lesser, the lame and infirm

Will no longer be falling.

Fragrant flower petals will be strewn

In his path.

Gone at last!

Those souring grapes of wrath.

We need more social workers!

(... North Carolina allows these? LOL! JK!)

And,

Fewer who worship at ersatz shrines

Built by that vastly growing mass

Of EVERYTHING-fearing beserkers.

[ November 22, 2005, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Comrade Trapp]

Damn Tancred, for only 6 posts, you sure have made a lot of friends.

Keep up the good work!

[jon_j_rambo]

@So-oddball --- That a kid! Nice guest appearance post, kind of like the old days in the PF...somebody rack 'em and mail that "I got racked by Camp Rambo" T-shirt.

@Rancid --- Are you really a neo-nazi heavy metal group? Dude, you need to learn that "Idaho is too great for hate".

-Legend

[Tancred]

Soddball,

You're an idiot - pure and simple. And a hysterical one at that. I assume you're about 14 or 15....grow up.

Of course I'm not a neo-Nazi - not at all! My aim is to blow away a few myths and bring a balance to the usual turgid statements about wicked Nazis, 'Antichrist' Hitler and such nonsense.

Revisionism is needed, it is controversial but it is needed. The aim of revisionism is NOT to make heroes out of the Nazis - it NEVER was the aim, you fools! The aim is to balance the arguments by looking at the facts that the evils in WW2 were not only committed by the Germans. The Russians and even the Western allies did some pretty ****ty things. These facts have to be faced and it is the duty of historians to make the public aware of them.

The truth is out of there if you are willing to read widely, but if you shut your eyes you will continue to see only what you have been brainwashed by the establishment to see.

Historical revisionism is becoming more widely accepted. Let's ignore David Irving because he is just a fool; he has brought trouble on himself when there was no need. He just loves the publicity. But there are other, respected historians, who advocate one form or another of revisionism - unlike Irving they are not accused of being pro-Nazi.

A lot of books written by conventional historians do not venture away from the official versions of history (as written by the victors) because doing so would harm their careers. But I've read hundreds of these books and they repeat the same old stuff 'ad infinitum' like a mantra. A new approach is needed.