OT: TRAVEL REPORT to Auschwitz/Plaszow!!!

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by Tancred:

Soddball,

Of course I'm not a neo-Nazi - not at all! My aim is to blow away a few myths and bring a balance to the usual turgid statements about wicked Nazis, 'Antichrist' Hitler and such nonsense.

Revisionism is needed, it is controversial but it is needed. The aim of revisionism is NOT to make heroes out of the Nazis - it NEVER was the aim, you fools! The aim is to balance the arguments by looking at the facts that the evils in WW2 were not only committed by the Germans. The Russians and even the Western allies did some pretty ****ty things. These facts have to be faced and it is the duty of historians to make the public aware of them.

The thing is, fellow fool, a lot of us have been saying these things at this site for years now. Some of us have even said it more times in this single thread than you've got total posts -- eight, I believe.

But there's a problem with trying to be objective about all of this. One side was peacefully minding it's business in September 1939 and the other decided to invade it's neighbor. In fact, two countries decided to invade and divide their mutual neighbor but for some odd reason the UK & France only declared war on one of them. I've never come across a reasonable explantion for that ommission other than prudence and geographical realities. So, right from the start there wasn't any crystal clear allied cause.

As for telling both sides of this, including the victimization of the Germany population, what were they supposed to expect after they'd gone roughshod through Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Low Countries, France and Russia plundering and killing with an arrogance and visciousness unseen since Ghengis Khan? How were the Russians supposed to conduct themselves in Germany after fighting their way through their own country and seeing for themselves the burnt villages and wreckage the Germans had left behind? How many Russians did the Germans kill, 20 million? How many Poles, 3.5 million? How many Jews, 6+ million? Gypsies and all the rest?

As I said much, much earlier in this thing, Germany spent five years planting the seeds it havested in 1945.

We all know how much the Germans suffered and we all know how much other people suffered under the Germans and the thing is, German brutality outdid all of the others. It wasn't even sensible, even the most hardened SS men, like Sepp Dietrich, were completely disgusted by the uncalled for and ruinous barbarity of the nazi state.

It doesn't become less barbaric if we point out that the Soviets and Japanese weren't particularly nice either. As for the western powers, you're right, we keep hiding those hideous American death camps and British gulags.

[Soddball]

Originally posted by Tancred:

Soddball,

You're an idiot - pure and simple. And a hysterical one at that. I assume you're about 14 or 15....grow up.

Then you clearly failed to read my profile. It seems that an inability to read clear text is one of your weaknesses.

Of course I'm not a neo-Nazi - not at all! My aim is to blow away a few myths and bring a balance to the usual turgid statements about wicked Nazis, 'Antichrist' Hitler and such nonsense.

So the Nazis weren't pure dagnasty evil? They were brave, Teutonic heroes acting gloriously? Gosh, and none of my books ever made that clear. Perhaps I should go back and read Goebbels' Propaganda - I did it my way. I suppose that invading Poland with Russia was some German humour that the rest of Europe failed to laugh at?

Revisionism is needed, it is controversial but it is needed. The aim of revisionism is NOT to make heroes out of the Nazis - it NEVER was the aim, you fools! The aim is to balance the arguments by looking at the facts that the evils in WW2 were not only committed by the Germans. The Russians and even the Western allies did some pretty ****ty things.

These facts have to be faced and it is the duty of historians to make the public aware of them.

The truth is out of there if you are willing to read widely, but if you shut your eyes you will continue to see only what you have been brainwashed by the establishment to see.

It's all so clear now! Suddenly I understand that the Nazis weren't perpetrating a vicious war of conquest, but were actually peaceful and loving! How could I have missed that?

Historical revisionism is becoming more widely accepted. Let's ignore David Irving because he is just a fool; he has brought trouble on himself when there was no need. He just loves the publicity. But there are other, respected historians, who advocate one form or another of revisionism - unlike Irving they are not accused of being pro-Nazi.

A lot of books written by conventional historians do not venture away from the official versions of history (as written by the victors) because doing so would harm their careers. But I've read hundreds of these books and they repeat the same old stuff 'ad infinitum' like a mantra. A new approach is needed.

So you've read Beevor's "Stalingrad" and "Berlin - the Downfall 1945"?

Beevor specifically references the rape of German civilians by the Red Army during its approach to Berlin and analyses the reasons behind it.

But I suppose that, being a 'conventional' historian, his opinion is invalid. Maybe I should be reading stuff about how "OMG Teh Grem4ns wer Teh Oprressedd!!!!!"?

In all your racist rant, you have at no point acknowledged the slaughter of the Poles by the Germans. But I suppose that, being untermensch, they wouldn't matter to you.

The Russians were bastards. We know. Trying to justify the German bastardness by saying 'The Russians were also bastards' is crud.

And you're still a filthy neo-nazi racist. And I still want you to get out of my country.

[Curry]

Incredible how they try to rewrite history.

[J P Wagner]

Incredible at how a thread which was basically to be a travalogue turned into a steaming pile of horse****....

[JerseyJohn]

JPW

True.

To put things back on track I offer the following link:

< Left Click for Link >

[ November 23, 2005, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Tagwyn]

"Steaming pile of horse****" = Rancid Neo-Nazi apologist!!! Martin: Lock this mess down before Rancid gets any worse. Tag

[Desert Dave]

My My My,

All the thread police-persons! :eek:

I find it an interesting irony

That he - Kuni, who so GLEE fully

Ransacked! so many other threads,

Over many, many, many years,

Should have one of his own

Hi jacked, Jacks.

Besides, experience hath suggested

That he who often openly claims to NOT

Be a racist, or sexist, or ist-ist,

Might very well... be one,

Whereas,

He who SEEMS (... by an acclaim, which, due

to the nature of commonly arrived-at conclusions

in general, is ALWAYS suspect)

To be a racist or sexist or ist-ist,

Sometimes... is NOT actually one.

So, lighten up yee who cast them occasional

Shards & stones.

And,

Happy Thanksgiving to all who so celebrate it!

One big happy family sharing all bounty! :cool:

[ November 23, 2005, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[JerseyJohn]

Strange, there were many good posts in this thread and a lot of interesting thoughts exchanged, including many that were introduced by Tancred -- the idea that more Germans (including Austrians & others living outside the traditional borders) were killed than are generally included in the War's statistics.

Okay, so what was so terrible about him saying that? Other things he said were downright absurd, but so what? Nobody ever puts up 100% profound posts. Except, of course, for those who arrive after the fact and howl for someone to be banned. Bellowling mobs are great havens for profound thinkers.

I'll take the occasional nazi, or commie, or Thuggie, as long as they believe in what they're saying, regardless of how ridiculous the rest of us may believe it to be. I'll especially always take them over those who have a habit of showing up late, contributing nothing, only to appeal to the moderators for a padlock.

And so it happened that this thread was hijacked and turned into a "Steaming pile of horse****," still the best fertilizer on earth.

Hijacked or pristine, brilliant or assinine, they all prance indifferently down the same Internet road, to be lost and forgotten in cyber eternity.

[Desert Dave]

Very well said Boardwalk Raconteur!

Just gettin' ready

To jump into - Bessie the Blue

And head on down Las Cruces way

For Turkey and trimmings too!

And Green Chile Casserole on the side!

If you and Marion were in the neighborhood

I'd ask you to come right along

For the ride!

[JerseyJohn]

Thank you and appreciated, my Sympatico friend.

And, of course, if you and Susan are ever up in these dreary environs we'd be privileged to feast together. But hopefully, with some fortuitous breaks, we can all share dinner in glorious NM on a picnic table near the Great Array.* :cool:

*No doubt if there is a picnic table near those things it's frying pan where maintenance workers curse all forms of stellar research -- but I'm sure we'll think of something better when the happy occasion arises.

Till Then, A Happy Thanksgiving to you and Susan, Dave.

[Tancred]

You have completely misunderstood me. I'm NOT trying to justify nazi atrocities - do you understand? I'm trying to concentrate minds on the fact that as well as Nazi atrocities, MANY others were committed by the allied side. And I reject your assertion that the mass rapes by Soviet soldiers can be justified as an act of revenge. If you use this argument, then the world would still be at war, as every nation has cause for avenging some atrocity or another.

In 1939 Germany invaded Poland. For some unknown reason, Britain and France decided to declare war on Germany, despite the fact that Poland could not be defended by allied troops. The Soviet invasion of Poland, again for some strange reason, did not elicit a similar response from Britain and France. So much for the principles for which the allies fought! Yes, I accept that the Germans committed monstrous atrocities against Jews, Poles and Russians, and I would not even dare to try to justify these actions, but I still maintain that to look at only one side of the coin is profoundly wrong, both historically and morally. Numbers are not the issue here, this isn't a sports game! It doesn't matter if the Nazis killed 26 million or the Soviets 13 million - THE FACT IS THAT ATROCITIES WERE COMMITTED BY BOTH SIDES!!

It may be argued that the Nazis were more nihilistic than the Soviets, but that doesn't make the latter free of responsibility. And I haven't even mentioned the allied bombing campaign, POW camps, etc. Although the Germans started the war, it can be argued that they had legitimate grievances arising from the Treaty of Versailles; had these been properly addressed there would, most probably, have been no Hitler government and no war! So let's not simplify this to a basic 'right and wrong' - history is NOT black and white.

And I find your accusations against me to be as loathsome as your arguments are emotional and infantile. It's people like you who wish to gag those who disagree with the modern 'establishment' viewpoint, because it makes you feel cosy and comfortable to believe that you are in the right. Well, if you believe this, then you are a true first class idiot. Go back to your cosy, politically correct life and live in your make believe world. Those who know and see the truth don't need to be lectured by the brainwashed.

Originally posted by Soddball:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tancred:

Soddball,

You're an idiot - pure and simple. And a hysterical one at that. I assume you're about 14 or 15....grow up.

Then you clearly failed to read my profile. It seems that an inability to read clear text is one of your weaknesses.

Of course I'm not a neo-Nazi - not at all! My aim is to blow away a few myths and bring a balance to the usual turgid statements about wicked Nazis, 'Antichrist' Hitler and such nonsense.

So the Nazis weren't pure dagnasty evil? They were brave, Teutonic heroes acting gloriously? Gosh, and none of my books ever made that clear. Perhaps I should go back and read Goebbels' Propaganda - I did it my way. I suppose that invading Poland with Russia was some German humour that the rest of Europe failed to laugh at?

Revisionism is needed, it is controversial but it is needed. The aim of revisionism is NOT to make heroes out of the Nazis - it NEVER was the aim, you fools! The aim is to balance the arguments by looking at the facts that the evils in WW2 were not only committed by the Germans. The Russians and even the Western allies did some pretty ****ty things.

These facts have to be faced and it is the duty of historians to make the public aware of them.

The truth is out of there if you are willing to read widely, but if you shut your eyes you will continue to see only what you have been brainwashed by the establishment to see.

It's all so clear now! Suddenly I understand that the Nazis weren't perpetrating a vicious war of conquest, but were actually peaceful and loving! How could I have missed that?

Historical revisionism is becoming more widely accepted. Let's ignore David Irving because he is just a fool; he has brought trouble on himself when there was no need. He just loves the publicity. But there are other, respected historians, who advocate one form or another of revisionism - unlike Irving they are not accused of being pro-Nazi.

A lot of books written by conventional historians do not venture away from the official versions of history (as written by the victors) because doing so would harm their careers. But I've read hundreds of these books and they repeat the same old stuff 'ad infinitum' like a mantra. A new approach is needed.

So you've read Beevor's "Stalingrad" and "Berlin - the Downfall 1945"?

Beevor specifically references the rape of German civilians by the Red Army during its approach to Berlin and analyses the reasons behind it.

But I suppose that, being a 'conventional' historian, his opinion is invalid. Maybe I should be reading stuff about how "OMG Teh Grem4ns wer Teh Oprressedd!!!!!"?

In all your racist rant, you have at no point acknowledged the slaughter of the Poles by the Germans. But I suppose that, being untermensch, they wouldn't matter to you.

The Russians were bastards. We know. Trying to justify the German bastardness by saying 'The Russians were also bastards' is crud.

And you're still a filthy neo-nazi racist. And I still want you to get out of my country. </font>

[JerseyJohn]

Gosh, isn't it great when two people decide they're the only ones in the thread? Why don't you two just write email to each other.

Tancred, you're constantly repeating things others have already said because you apparently aren't even reading their posts. So you and Soddball can continue spinning out in your private dance. I really dislike writing responses and even defending someone -- as I've been defending your more rational statements, and being stuck on the side somewhere with two people who decide to gnaw away at their own petty differences in semantics.

Keep it. You two deserve one another.

[Slapaho]

Great posts Kuniworth, thanks. I know this post isnt adding anything but I just wanted people to know that this lurker appreciated the Travel Report.