Operation Sealion Variant

[SeaMonkey]

I think Rolend is right in the neighborhood here with these suggestions, but we need a little refinement.

The idea is create an abstract of amphibious type levels. As levels increase so does the ability to efficiently prosecute an amphibious landing.

Simple efficiency could be defined as a quicker, larger landing with the accompanying increase in firepower and movement off the beaches.

0 level, Corps/Hq units only, the ready phase(1 turn), 5 tiles max and waiting to land one turn, no movement after landing, only attack. 2 turns at sea = decrease in morale and readiness.

Level 1. Corps/hq units only, 6 tiles max, ready phase, no waiting to land, no movement off beachhead, only attack.

level 2, Corps/hq only, 7 tiles, ready phase, no landing waiting, movement off beach allowed.

level 3, corps/hq only, 8 tiles, ready phase, no waiting, after landing movement.

level 4, all units, 9 tiles, ready phase, no waiting, post landing movement.

level 5, all units, 10 tiles, load and land same turn, post landing movement.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Exel:

I concur. French units at full strenght should be tested for balance, but it sounds about right. It would make the French conquest harder as it is a walkover at present.

France is indeed very easy to take, especially if you start attacking it as early as 1939, but that's historically correct, I guess.

[hellraiser]

France is easy to take no matter when you attack it. A hit on Belgium/France in '39 as well as maintaining the offensive in France during the autumn/winter is weather dependant. France will most likely fall in May-June even if you hit it in 39, unless the allied player counterattacks recklessly or Axis really have huge luck with weather.

If you attack Belgium/France in April or even May, it doesn't make much difference - France most likely won't make it till July. Fine weather speeds the advance in France dramatically and those turn you waited till spring also allowed you to invest in diplo/techs. If you go aggro in 39, you need cash to operate troops - cash that is better used for investing in Spain or some techs IMO.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Rolend:

Franky-Boy that is the million dollar question, I know coding can be extremlly difficult and sometimes even more so after it has already been writen. I do not really expect these changes to happen, it is just a suggestion and something to think about.

Lars ok you have me there subtract one from each of my level numbers I would have the system go level 0 1 2.

0 you have to wait a turn to unload.

1 you could unload the same turn but could not move.

2 you can unload the same turn and move in that turn if you have enough AP's.

Is that a little better

Think that would work just fine.

Germany is never going to put more than 1 chit in. If they get the tech early, they might go for a Sealion or the end run around Alexandria. Italy, probably never.

Allies, well, they got plenty of time for the chits to pay off. Think the real question is who's going to lead the assault, US or UK? UK might be ahead in the tech due to more time, which might prove interesting.

And I don't like Seamonkey's suggestion to limit it to Corps. We're investing significant amount of mpp here for what amounts to a fancy barge. Loading costs reflect the price of building them, so just raise it for Tank or Army if you're unhappy with it.

[SeaMonkey]

A good point Lars, who is going to lead the charge....er landing?

The answer is both, and here is where I have a problem with UK and USA having different tech development schemes.

In reality, UK and USA shared much of their technology and so in keeping with the parameters of a WW2 simulation they should have a cooperative tech system.

After USA enters, there should be a factor that deals with keeping USA and UK developments roughly the same, a level difference at the most.

I realize that some adjustment will need to be addressed for balance, but IMO, this presents the game with an increase in credibility.

And Lars, to address my point, when was there ever a landing that put more than a corps of humanity on a beach within a 50 mile diameter(SC tile) as depicted by an amphibious assault?

[Lars]

Never.

But there was 100,000+ men that came ashore after the initial D-Day assault. Like, within the week.

Now repeat after me, "It's only an abstraction, it's only an abstraction, it's only an abstraction…"

[Lars]

Wait a tick, just thought of one.

Third Punic War. Also Marathon. And Xerxes' invasion. And I'm sure I could think of a few more.

Can I count Operation Olympic?

[ June 08, 2006, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Lars ]

[SeaMonkey]

No, it didn't happen. Remember...as depicted by an amphibious assault.....not an unloading against a nonhostile environment.

I have that scenario at level 4 and 5, you have the ability to assault with larger formations.

To be realistic, you need to establish facilities to deal with combat units' heavy equipment.

Corps, supported with air, naval, and paratroop operations capture port facilities. You are then able to land the larger formations with their equipment.

You know I'm right.

[Lars]

Well, why would you land where people are shooting at you?

Not at all. We're only talking a matter of scale in the number of landing craft built, nothing more. Don't even really need a port for that matter. Normandy was supported over the beach for quite a while, as Cherbourg was wrecked.

[SeaMonkey]

Uhhh...Lars, remember anything about Mulberries?

Level 4 Amphib Tech takes their creation into account. :cool:

[Lars]

Yes I do. But I think we're getting a bit carried away, all a Mulberry is is a concrete box. The sunken ships were an even easier solution.

Don't see any need to go beyond Rolend's plan, at least, not in this game anyway. Don't think we need to simulate Amphibious to any higher level of fidelity, imho.

[Exel]

Which is another point that still need to be addressed with amphibious tech. Some of us suggested prior to the patch that amphibious invasions should bring with them inherent supply for the units with for example a 33% chance each turn of losing it (alternatively a set turn limit). Now that we have the tech, and if we apply Rolend's system, we could have that feature at Level 2 (or whatever is the highest).

[Rolend]

Yea I kind of like the simple way but all these ideas are good, I am not much for making the 'detail' work so I won't argue about it.

I will say this about supply, it was a huge problem for the Allies. The Germans left every port totally destoryed and the biggest single problem for the Allies was keeping enough supplys. I think the only reason the Allie push to Germany stalled in late 44 was due to the lack of gas and other supplys, the Germans were in total chaos but were able to regroup when the Allies halted to let supply catch up. I don't think any amount of amphib tech should effect supply.

[Sombra]

Coming back to this old topic, why can´t we simply reduce the range of amphib transports to 4 tiles?

Amphib tech would have more meaning and even Norway would gain importance as a potential gathering point for invasion troops in the north of Germany

[Exel]

Originally posted by Rolend:

I will say this about supply, it was a huge problem for the Allies. The Germans left every port totally destoryed and the biggest single problem for the Allies was keeping enough supplys. I think the only reason the Allie push to Germany stalled in late 44 was due to the lack of gas and other supplys, the Germans were in total chaos but were able to regroup when the Allies halted to let supply catch up. I don't think any amount of amphib tech should effect supply.

All that is true, and by no means should the Allies have an easy supply right after invasion. But as it is currently, they have NO supply. A historical landing in Normandy is impossible (or pure suicide) since you can't take Paris on the first turn and there is no harbor available. Hence you will have to invade in Brest or Benelux to secure the port on turn 1.

Amphibious invasions having an inherent supply for the units for a limited period of time (33% chance to lose it every turn wont guarantee it for long) would allow some historical operations that aren't currently possible - most notably Overlord.

[Sombra]

I don´t see the problem here. Dont you simply drop an HQ with your fist serious round of troops for supply? Bomb the defenses into oblivion?

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Sombra:

I don´t see the problem here. Dont you simply drop an HQ with your fist serious round of troops for supply? Bomb the defenses into oblivion?

No, because the HQ needs a city to be in supply itself before it can suplly to others.

And there is no way you can take a city in France against a human player : just put corpses in the cities and next to them and D-Day won't have a chance.

Against the AI, D-Day never happens of course : you do Sealion, man the three cities in the UK and voile ! Your entire Atlantic war is over.

He'll try to land some pathetic US troops in the UK in '44, but they can never take an entrenched 4 city, so...

The hardest chance in the patch for me is the fact that you got to take Stalingrad too for an early victory !

[Lars]

Not true. A HQ is a valid source of supply all by itself.

Not a great one, mind you...

[Blashy]

Taking Brest is a piece of cake vs. a human player, you can usually take it in 43, the Axis is way to busy in Russia to do much about it except send 2-3 units with and HQ to try and kick you out.

Killing off that unit on Brest is probably the easiest kill in the game for the Allies.

But then you have ships and AIR power to keep hiting them, so most players just accept that Brest will fall to the Allies.

[Sombra]

Originally posted by TaoJah:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sombra:

I don´t see the problem here. Dont you simply drop an HQ with your fist serious round of troops for supply? Bomb the defenses into oblivion?

No, because the HQ needs a city to be in supply itself before it can suplly to others.

And there is no way you can take a city in France against a human player : just put corpses in the cities and next to them and D-Day won't have a chance.

Against the AI, D-Day never happens of course : you do Sealion, man the three cities in the UK and voile ! Your entire Atlantic war is over.

He'll try to land some pathetic US troops in the UK in '44, but they can never take an entrenched 4 city, so...

The hardest chance in the patch for me is the fact that you got to take Stalingrad too for an early victory ! </font>

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Sombra:The only way the allies can´t take a city france is that the allied commander must be totally drunk. If you don´t believe me. Try me. 1944? Sometimes I ask myself if the people play the say game as I do. I try to start the first mayor landing operation with the Allies in late 1942 goal is to take Paris already in 1943 at least.

Sure, if you can bomb them from the UK or with ships.

But after a UK-surrender you can't do either of those : the UK is mine and I got my entire Germand and Italian fleet waiting for you...

So those corspes hold well, entranched all the way. I don't even need to build fortresses around the cities to place the extra corpses in, even I do build them, there is no place else to build anything anyway.

[Sombra]

And do you believe it would have been possible to invade France without the UK as gathering area? I think not. Though why should it be possible in SC2?

That sealion are to easy , is an ongoing old discussion and I think simply reducing amphib range (yes I repeated it several times) will do the trick.

[Exel]

All I'm saying is that currently you can't invade in places like Normandy. And that's where it historically happened, in case you forgot. The Allies did not invade in Brest or Calais.

If any invading unit would have inherent supply for at least the one turn after the invasion, it would open much more realistic opportunities. Taking a city and a port on turn 1 would not be as mandatory as it is now.

[Sombra]

Exel here I disagree. The troops still have some supply after one turn. When we are talking about supply etc. then I think dropping an HQ in the beginning is a good "placeholder" for the logistics effort. If the germans had enough forces and reacted quick enough even in the Normandy the invasion could have been a dissaster.

[Exel]

Even with a HQ the units can not, after one turn, take any city within their reach. Taking on Benelux is hard even on turn 1. Taking Paris on turn 2 is damn near impossible.