Diplo: "Spain is Lame" strategy, USA still a joke, Germans overated

[jon_j_rambo]

@FrankyBoy --- Boy, listen here. Of course Germany took less time to blast France, they planned it for years in advance & lived right beside them! Think, boy. Imagine the USA planning & building up for 10 years to surprise wax the bee-hinds of Mexico & Canada?

Sing that song,

Rambo the Composer

[abulbulian]

Is it just me cause I don't know much about this Rambo guy. But he seems really annoying and has a limited and twisted view of historical facts. I suggest he takes a break from playing computer games and picks up a book or two and does some reading on the topics he wants to discuss.

Also, for all these people that want SC to be an exact model of WWII and for it to follow a historical path, GET A GRIP. It was meant to be a game playable in a day or two. If you want a more detailed game, go pick up a copy of GMT's 'A World at War': http://www.aworldatwar.com. I like SC2 for what it is, but sure there could be a few changes here and there. But some are trying to change it away from what it was originally intended to be.

[Rolend]

Abulbulian I think Rambo is ok, well maybe he has watched one too many movies but if you get past his extrem pro American slant he has an occasional good idea

I don't expect the game to follow a historical path, if it did then it wouldn't be much fun to play, however I do expect a good WWII game to have a sound footing in ... WWII I guess silly of me

[Night]

The U.S. has to be unrepresented or else the game would be far to in the allies favor.

Germany was COMPLETELY trounced in WWII. They really did not even come close to winning. Yes, they nearly captured Moscow and possibly could have saved the 6th Army in Stalingrad, but even that did not mean the SU would have been defeated, and more over even if the SU would have been defeated it still would have taken too long with the western allies breathing down Germany's neck.

If we really see the kind of numbers that the U.S. and western allies tossed at the Germans in SC2 it would be game set and match every single time. Germany is a relativly small country compared to Russia and America. add England, Canada, etc. and you can plainly see the German's were outnumbered like 10 to 1. Try putting 10 armies for every one of your German ones in the editor and see how long you last.

On top of that, I honestly do believe a lot of people in europe and canada let their dislike of the U.S. transfer into these things. A solid number of people in europe have to much pride to admit how much America really helped out. Moreover many simply say the U.S. was ultimatly useless since Russia would have won anyway. These kind of ideals and anti-american sentiment are felt even on this board. People will be a lot quicker to point out Kasserin Pass then to mention any other successful operation. Just like in the reverse everyone talks about Stalingrad and the glorious Russians, but never mentions early Kiev where 3/4 of a million russians were ethier killed or captured, or the entire first year of the war were Soveit forces were beaten so badly that even Stalin was not so sure thing's would turn out ok.

As for the U.S. naval comment. I believe without destroyers in the game the U.S. can be nothing but under-represented. Most of the large capital ships, esp. carriers and battleships, were in the Pacific. Converse of popular belief that the U.S. navy was "destroyed" at Pearl harbor, in reality we really didn't lose an enourmous amount of combat strength. Yes we had very few battleships left immediatly following the attack, but we had all our carriers, cruiser, destroyers, and subs. Battleships ironicly were rendered obsolete WITH the attack on Pearl, so even if we had lost every single one in the entire fleet, it wouldn't have mattered.If the U.S. navy had really been crippled as is the popular belief, we would not have been able to do so well at Coral sea, Guadalcanal, or Midway. Not to mention fend off the U-Boats. So don't kid yourself, pearl harbor really did not mean a whole lot in terms of the military capability of the U.S. navy.

[ June 07, 2006, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Night ]

[Exel]

No one is downplaying the importance of the U.S. involvement. We are only arguing that the Americans didn't single-handedly own the Germans like rambo is claiming. They had to fight and they had their drawbacks too.

The result of the war was obvious to anyone in 1943 at the latest. Defeat of the Axis was only a question of how and when. The Germans put up a stiff resistance and delayed the inevitable for years, first in Italy and then in France and Benelux. The Allies didn't simply walk over them.

[Blashy]

Night, your comments are all based on the fact that Germany made some SERIOUS mistakes, you could put 10 crucial decision Hitler made and just making one of them probably cost them the war, he made 10.

Basically the Germans could not afford a major error, minor yes, major meant loss of manpower and momemtum. And Hitler is the grandmaster of major errors and his great tactical officers were for all their genius pretty stupid in always following them (happy for it).

Yes they were outnumbered. But USA might not have joined so early, since Germany's Generals had a clue that DoW on USA was suicide and not necessarry but once again followed old Adolf's orders.

I'm convinced the Germans could have sued for Peace, for one Stalin was about ready to throw in the towel at one point, imagine if non of señor dumbass's orders had no gone threw how much they would have plowed threw Russia, at least cutting off the Caucausus oil supply, which was their intent from the get go but Hitler did not like that a city by the same name as his enemy was standing, nice military doctrine that was...

Imagine Rommel being allowed to place his 2 million mines (yes 2 million) along the beaches of France.

Even with less manpower, I think they could have gone for a stalemate.

The possibility was there, just like Eastern Europe could today be French (Napoleon) or WW2 never could have occured because the Germans (again) could have won a peace in WW1, were it not for being betrayed by their political leaders.

Alot of things could have been different throughout the world, not for the better at times.

[Rolend]

Blashy I think the only way for Hitler to get out of the war with his skin is if he could of some how forced a peace by late 41 MAYBE summer of 42, but by then the forces coming to bear on Germany were so great that the Germans were doomed no matter what decisons were made. They just didn't have the man power or resources to counter all the Allies. Close only counts in Horse Shoes and high explosives.

[mustang96]

Hey Mr Rambo

We'd kick your butt if you invaded us Canadiens, so don't even think about it!

[Kryssing]

National Socialism as seen in Germany under Hitler was doomed from the start. It was an apocalyptic ideology with a lot of negative stereotypes attached to it. It had to fight always and never stop, an idea like that is doomed to fail from the start.

[jon_j_rambo]

Germany's problem is the original sin, pride. When they gave their heart over to the Dark Side, that's the moment they lost. That was probably back in 1933, they had already lost.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Germany's problem is the original sin, pride. When they gave their heart over to the Dark Side, that's the moment they lost. That was probably back in 1933, they had already lost.

I can agree with that, although this means the human race as a whole has lost, greed, which I consider the original sin.

[jon_j_rambo]

@TBlashy --- You're getting warmer Welcome to Roman's Road.

[Fartknock3r]

Was there a point on this thread? Yes US is initially weak, but its for gameplay balance. And lets remember people, A LOT of americans are german descent. And Rambo, America's contribution to the war was great, and was needed, but let face it, the US didnt walk over the Germans, and the USSR faced 80% of the German military.

[jon_j_rambo]

Well, we had another little fight of our own, called the Japs. Bottom Line, we won. We rebuilt the world, changed the world, everybody is getting onboard the USA way of life. Democracy, Capitalism, etc...well, save parts of the Middle East.

If you're reading this, thank a teacher. If you're reading this in English, thank the US Military.

-Legend

[hellraiser]

I had the feeling that the original sin was related somehow to Adam banging Eve ... which, IMO, is not such a bad thing

Rambolero, I found this nice link for you ... Stars'n stripes, G Patton, 4 letter words, all that a true american love

It's a 3 page article, having that famous Patton speech inside - absolutely amazing stuff.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/articles.php?p=45&page=1

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

@ JJR: yeah, your right.. America is spreading its way of life everywhere, and everyone is happy... esp. "the saved parts of Middle East". They are so happy that they celebrate with fireworks every day, esp. in Baghdad.

Apart from that I`m so damn happy about the way the whole world learns much about the healthy food you can buy in the USA where 60% of the population are obese... I think it will be good fun to read in history books about a funny superpower which killed itself by overeating. I live in a city with an american garrison... funny and comfortable people, but I have never ever seen so many morbildy obese persons..

If they will force me to eat that **** over a longer time period I would reconsider joining the mujaheddin...

Basically I think the time were the USA can lead large scale ground warfare operations are long gone coz they would have to send all the fatties over... this is why they rely on high tech so much.

[hellraiser]

Der Panzergraf has a point here

[R.J.]

Originally posted by Blashy:

... your comments are all based on the fact that Germany made some SERIOUS mistakes...

Basically the Germans could not afford a major error...

At the same time it's worth noting that Germany would never have had the success it did if it hadn't been for serious errors on the part of the allies in the early war years - France in particular. France's biggest problem though wasn't made on the battlefield, it was the fractured nature of their society and government after a decade or so of fighting communists and socialists. There were a lot of French who thought that the Nazi's were preferable to French communists.

In the game, it might more realistic to make it so that French morale can never rise above 30% (rather than making them really weak).

[Colin I]

Agreed about French society BUT some troops (some of the colnials, some of the tank groupings) were excellent. I think French morale should be highly unpredicable. Some units performed better than expected, lots fell apart faster than expected.

Incidentally, I wondered if we should have a propaganda technology. Simply affects enemy morale negatively and allied forces positively.

The French armament industry was slow to get going but by the time of the German attack was outproducing the Germans. So, if the Germans had attacked slightly later it could be serious - SC2 handles this fine.

French logistics was awful. I'd have a reduced supply range for this.

[fantasy57]

As a French, I have to point that the main reasons of the defeat in 1940 were not so social but mainly that everybody, especially in the army, was convinced that French army was the best while it was directed by St-Cyr (french West Point) Generals thinking that horses were the future of the military art and never ever had read anything from De Gaulle, Guderian or Liddle-Hart.

Also, only defensive strategies were established and nobody could even imagine that German panzers could rush through the deep woods of the Ardennes. Maginot line was the unbeatable Fortress.

Aside of this, tanks were great, planes & ships too, and some of the troops also (colonial, Foreign Legion, Corps-francs...) but led by stupid generals and silly tactics.

Regarding what is due to the US, yes, I understand how much it did cost to the average US family to send his sons dying on the far away beaches of Normandy or whatever, and we all feel thankful for this.

Aside of this, if we speak about US politics (and consequently not about the average american) would the US have (as french and british also should have) raised their voice (and maybe more) during the Spanish Civil War, would some industrials not have seen Hitler as a nice guy with whom making business was fun (remember the Ford/Opel trucks and some more...), would the US Congress have been much less isolationist, which makes some people seriously think that Roosevelt made the choice to let Pearl Harbour happen while he was aware of the coming attack, only to have the US finally enter into the war, then maybe a lot more of lives could have been saved.

Of course, America finally did a lot and more for "freedom" and paid its due, but is definitely not the immaculate White Knight and as a rising major power also grabbed a large profit from this conflict...

[Yogi]

Aside of this, if we speak about US politics (and consequently not about the average american) would the US have (as french and british also should have) raised their voice (and maybe more) during the Spanish Civil War, would some industrials not have seen Hitler as a nice guy with whom making business was fun (remember the Ford/Opel trucks and some more...), would the US Congress have been much less isolationist, which makes some people seriously think that Roosevelt made the choice to let Pearl Harbour happen while he was aware of the coming attack, only to have the US finally enter into the war, then maybe a lot more of lives could have been saved.

I apologize for any political tone in advance. Of course now so many including France have lost the lessens of history as they clamor for the US to be more isolationist and get out of the war on terror. Perhaps they no longer care about how many lives may be saved for the future as they focus only on the present.

Back to topic! I don't know about attacking Spain being a "Lame" policy. I still maintain that the game by making so many attacks against so many countries potentially a reasonable strategy does make it a game rather than a simulation. I understand some of the remarks about Spain (and a few others) but I also felt the game made it too easy for Spain to join the Axis, and have even seen it make that decision several times when the Axis was already pretty much defeated. Not too realistic. Some comments about the new patch may indicate that the problem may be a little less prominent now.

[Blashy]

1- Not be more isolationaist, but how about not being imperalist (ex: "ALL" latin american countries have been severly hurt by US policy). The US and let me state that although they are the main target, Canada, UK, France, Scandinavian countries, pretty much EVERY other well off country is guilty of the same. Supporting Dictators in other countries as long as it benefits theirs; cheap labor, cheap raw materials, access to diamonds, access to gold, control of oil.

By letting companies exploit these people our Govts are guilty of supporting people being taken advantage off and as a consequence WE the people who live in these countries are guilty.

So it is easy to call these people "terrorrists" but when you ask a Palestenian why do you keep fighting for this piece of worthless sand... that is all that he has left, that is pretty much the feeling in other countries and the Arabian countries it is worse because they have a valued resource yet the people remain poor... why? Because we accept their corrupt Govts (Saudi Arabia) and thus they only know one way to fight back and mainly because that is the ONLY way for them to fight back and be heard. Might not always work, but sometimes the message gets through.

It is quite simple it all comes down too greed, I hate that word and I wish I could eradicate that emotion from humanity... perfect world.

2- Spain is fine, the only problem is that it can make diplomacy in the game obsolet, at least until hopefully one day diplomacy chits no longer cancel each other out.

[jon_j_rambo]

Rough day for al-Zarqawi.

I just don't like this whole Spanish Diplo thing.s

[Franky-Boy]

Originally posted by Blashy:

It is quite simple it all comes down too greed, I hate that word and I wish I could eradicate that emotion from humanity... perfect world.

That's absolutely true!

Each and every government (and also democracy) in the world actually protects the greed of the rich and powerful people. Believe me, one day, the whole mankind will eradicate itself due to greed.

Ciao Frank

[jon_j_rambo]

Yep, the love of money...