Elite Forces

[initpaul]

Hello All!

So far love SC No 1 and am looking forward to the Blitkrieg!

I see there will be para's, but will we have the options of LRDG (Long Range Desert Group), SS formations (Leibstandarte, Das Reich, Wiking etc), Also bear in mind the following Ukrainian assistance to Axis presence and the SS Werewolf (Nazi resistance upon German capitulation).

I'm sure a lot of folks will know many others, just thought it might add to the gaming if we had elite forces...

Regards

Paul

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

The LRDG were a super cool unit, but I would be greatly surprised to see them appear in the game.

There is simply no way to represent a handful of guys running around in a few light vehicles, no matter how annoying they were in real life.

It is basically the same for any unit or type of unit that operated as small groups of men, regardless of how brutal was their impact.

Otherwise, you would need to include the 1st Special Service Force as well as Skorzeny's mob.

The SS for all their publicity, don't deserve any better than one or two Corps counters from about 42 onward. Before that, they were merely "enthusiastic" and inexperienced smaller scale units.

I personally, am not in a hurry to have any unit that can't be represented by a corp present in the game.

If I want micromanagement, I will just go with one of my good operational scale games.

[JerseyJohn]

From what I understand scale is up to the creator in scenarios. The maximum size map is very large, no reason anyone that obsessed with North Africa shouldn't be able to create an Eastern Mediteranean Theater only, with brigade and regimental units along with recon and elite motorized battalions / companies that would be fast and capable of disruping enemy supply lines.

[pzgndr]

Well, yes I suppose. With the new unit builds and upgrades, you can customize each unit. Say you get an advance or two in mechanization but don't want to pay the cost to upgrade every unit.

Maybe the UK would upgrade a corps and name it LRDG. Maybe Germany would upgrade a corps and name it Gross Deutschland. When Russia gets around to upgrading units, it may look for those with high experience first and rename them Guards units. So these "elites" would then be your special units.

[Bootstrap]

LRDG? If you want "ants" in your game, play EUROPA. Do we really need specific SS units when you can upgrad a unit as in SC1? Chrome is pretty, and bells and whistles are nice, but if it doesn't add something specifically useful it becomes--in my estimation--like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. I'm glad to see airborne units have been included. Werewolf units? Useless.

[Bill101]

Maybe the effect of the LRDG could be represented in the same way that Russian partisans affect Axis supply, though without a partisan unit actually appearing.

For example, the LRDG, activated by the UK with a cost of MPPs, will have a % chance of reducing the resource value, and therefore the supply, of Axis held cities in North Africa.

Or is this getting a bit too much? I'm not really sure just how effective the LRDG were without looking it up.

[ArmenianBoy]

With out going into exact #'s, the SS army formations played a very significant roles in the Wehrmacht. Mostly 43 and onwards, as they comprised about half a million strong. They tended to get the best equipment and in some cases the best men and training. I do understand the political aspect, however, from a purely militaristic standpoint they should receive 1-2 corps size units in any historical WWII strategic game.

[Komet-163]

Ok about the para's if drop your 1st 82nd 101st etc will they disrupt the enemy supply line since they are behind the frontline or will they merely just b used to capture vital hexes?

[pzgndr]

I do understand the political aspect, however, from a purely militaristic standpoint they should receive 1-2 corps size units in any historical WWII strategic game.

That political aspect for international marketing is exactly what keeps the game from offering Nazi flag icons and specialized Waffen-SS unit names and such. That's easy enough to understand. In fairness, players can edit the bitmap flags and give their units historical names if they want.

The other issue is whether these "elite" units should be different than regulars. I've tried to point out that unit customization based on different tech levels will now be possible, since unit upgrades will now cost extra MPPs and will not be automatic. So yes, you can now create an elite pool of forces with better abilities than the rest of your force, but you'll pay extra for these.

Also, elite reinforcements will be offered in SC2. These will be based on unit experience, where 1-5 points of experience will allow for 1-5 additional strength points. So if you take your most experienced units and give them the latest and greatest tech upgrades and elite reinforcements and rename them to be SS or Guards or whatever, you can have your elites.

But they won't be special unit types with any special abilities beyond what is already offered. And the game defaults won't violate those political aspects.

[ev]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I do understand the political aspect, however, from a purely militaristic standpoint they should receive 1-2 corps size units in any historical WWII strategic game.

That political aspect for international marketing is exactly what keeps the game from offering Nazi flag icons and specialized Waffen-SS unit names and such. That's easy enough to understand. In fairness, players can edit the bitmap flags and give their units historical names if they want.

The other issue is whether these "elite" units should be different than regulars. I've tried to point out that unit customization based on different tech levels will now be possible, since unit upgrades will now cost extra MPPs and will not be automatic. So yes, you can now create an elite pool of forces with better abilities than the rest of your force, but you'll pay extra for these.

Also, elite reinforcements will be offered in SC2. These will be based on unit experience, where 1-5 points of experience will allow for 1-5 additional strength points. So if you take your most experienced units and give them the latest and greatest tech upgrades and elite reinforcements and rename them to be SS or Guards or whatever, you can have your elites.

But they won't be special unit types with any special abilities beyond what is already offered. And the game defaults won't violate those political aspects. </font>

[Desert Dave]

Bill is right on the money here... just one of VERY many of the supreme challenges will be:

How many of these "elite" units can you afford, and keeping firm in mind how very extensive those front lines can be!

Do you merely keep a "potent reserve" so that you can knock down any blitzing mech units?

Or, do you make MOST of your forces... well equipped and VERY powerful?

Depends, of course, on which side you are playing, and when.

At least now, in this new SC2, you have many CHOICES as Strategic Commander, as to the strength, and make-up, and disposition of your forces.

(... also keeping in mind the "build limits")

No longer can you merely shove Uber units forward and bludgeon the opponent.

A little more advance planning will be necessary.

Much to be recommened in keeping "lesser" units in key areas, to soak up the blitzkriegs, and to turn it around and infiltrate all those areas where your opponent has opted for a relative FEW powerful units, at the expense of covering every possible break in the front lines.

Simply put... there are MANY more possiblities now, and it will be MUCH more difficult to scheme up that... perfect storm! :cool:

[Night]

I think there should def. be an opition to increase training at a greater MPP cost for ground units so they start with increased experience.

[Donnerwetter]

An option could be to once in a while in the game get the chance to create elite forces. They would cost extra but would have certain qualities as better def, off or movement...

EXCELLENT!

[initpaul]

Okay, I see where I may have disregarded some major factors on elite formations. So we can exclude perhaps elite forces such as SS, Guards etc.

However I still see LRDG as relevant - to a degree, though I think it may indeed be too much micromanagement (and I really like the major scale of SC1).

As for Werewolves... well, they may not have literally achieved as much as the French Resistance (and why were these missing in the first game?!) - but that is not to say that they should have no function in a gaming scenario... Though, I freely admit if Germany capitulates, then the game is over...

Regards to all

Paul

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by Night:

I think there should def. be an opition to increase training at a greater MPP cost for ground units so they start with increased experience.

Instead of a greater cost, why not add 3 turns to the time it takes to produce the unit.

Thus an elite unit with say 1 Bar would appear 3 turns later (ie on Turn 4).

A normal unit would appear on the same turn (ie on Turn 1).

[Night]

That's a good idea also.

[jon_j_rambo]

3R used force pools which gave maximums for units & paratroops. If paratroops died out of supply, you could not buy them again.

[Komet-163]

What if the special forces you can have are limited in the way the commanders are. that way if your special forces are destroyed then you cant get them back

[ev]

Originally posted by Night:

I think there should def. be an opition to increase training at a greater MPP cost for ground units so they start with increased experience.

I agree, and furthermore...

German procedures called for special units to be pulled out of the front line say once a year to get special training such as new tactics on how to deal with new enemy weapons, etc. Under these guidelines, tank units were considered special units and were supposed (when possible) to be removed from the fontline not only for refitting but for new training I believe once a year.

Perhapps we the game could provide for such special training. Once a year, units that are not in enemy ZOC could receive some special trainning and refitting at a preset MPP cost. This training and refitting would increase some combat attribute that wears out progressively through the course of say a year.

[Kuniworth]

Once again. THis is a strategic game, not a tactical simulation a la panzer general.

The german ss-formations were divisions, why in gods name should they appear here?

I'm getting a bit of people wanting special units in the original scenarios not taking responsibility for the scope the game presents.

[pzgndr]

units that are not in enemy ZOC could receive some special ... refitting at a preset MPP cost. This ... refitting would increase some combat attribute that wears out progressively

This is what elite reinforcements should do. Pull units off the line and gradually increase unit strength above 10 based on experience level, ie a unit with 2 experience bars could get reinforced to 12, etc. Call it special training, call it special equipment, whatever.

[SeaMonkey]

Cool down Kuni, all is well, things will work out. I must remind you though I SS Panzer Corps (1 & 12 SS Pz Div.)+ II SS Panzer Corps (2 & 9 SS Pz Div.) = 6th SS Panzer Army, Dec. 16th 1944. OK yeah there were some volksgrenadiers and a fallshirmjager division to fill out the infantry contingent.