Wishlist for WaW 1.01

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

Needless to say, SC2 and Waw are very great products, and the support is better than for any other game I`ve ever played.. maybe that`s the reason why we play it. I think one reason for the high quality is the ongoing improvement.. and this thread is to "collect" all the wishes to Hubert, so that sooner or later the quality gets even higher. I focus on the `39 Fall Weiss, coz that is what most people play.

I read almost all threads in the last days carefully, and the target of this thread is more or less to "bundle" and clarify these wishes.

At first I need to say that there is the old philosophical question: make the game balanced or historically accurate.. and the answer is balanced, as Hubert pointed out very claerly. So if we want to have a higher degree of realism, we need to find ideas and solutions which do not change the game balance at all.

So here comes the list of things I read in various threads.. I picked only those where more people agreed that this should be changed.

(1) "Invisible" units and defensive bonuses

Engineers (while fortifying) and Paras (while preparing) are invisible unless the attacker is adjacent to the unit. With the new defense bonus for surprise encounters this leads to the fact that attacking units can be severely damaged. Invisible is fine and defensive bonus is fine, but the combination is deadly.

I think this problem is adressed to Hubert already.

(2) Sea Lion Problem

At the moment the UK is defenseless against a seriously prepared SeaLion. The current mechanism is to increase the war readiness for the US and USSR in case there is a SeaLion... the UK Government moves to Alexandria, and the efficiency goes up to 10 in Egypt. It works out because SeaLion doesn`t make sense, but the ways to achieve it isn`t really great.

There are various ways to solve that problem and maintain the balance.. one way is to limit the total transport capacity a country can use at one time.. this could be done in the R&D screen for example.

I need to say that I like the idea to avoid a game over scenario in case Germany does a SeaLion.. but the way to get to this point can be improved, simply by make the UK better prepared.

(3) German HQ problem

I think Germany should be able to buy one more HQ.. there are more units on the board, but not enough HQs to supply them.

(4) Italian discussion

Many people claim that Italy is useless... they are wrong and right, because the italians were useless. But at the moment Italy is simply not capable to do any offensive actions in the Med theater. Okay, one can buy a HQ and a tank unit as soon as there are enough MPPs collected... but shouldn`t there be a HQ or a tank group in the production chain? Of course Italy was weak, but they were weak due to bad leadership and low fighting spirit.. and they were huge in numbers in the beginning. This might be represented by cutting down the strength of the italian armies down to 5.... so they are existing but useless unless you invest into them.

My problem is: in North Africa at the moment there are two choices: either abandon it or reinforce it heavliy. Even if Italy puts all its MPP into North Africa, they cannot hold it against the UK.... and if you just send a few germans down, you will have an expensive stalemate until the Americans come (this is the historic case). So most people abandon it or send down massive forces to overthrow Egypt quickly.

My idea to solve that problem would be to enforce the Italians (a HQ and a Tank unit is needed... they be stored in the production queue and come out in Mid 1940 at lowered strength). I would also slightly increase the UK forces down there.. the target is to make the Italian stronger so that they can hold Lybia if they play defensive... I`m not talking about an offense.

The UK should be able to hold Egypt against the Italians unless Germany sends a massive force.

So I would like to strengthen the Italian more than the british troops. But we don`t want to change the balance.. so just give the UK a bit more naval units around its motherland.. this helps solving the SeaLion problem, and the balance is unchanged.

What do you guys think?

[Sombra]

1. Good points.

2. Regarding Egypt I would like to see a slight change of the map so that the "bottleneck" is slightly more open.

3. rd From my personal perspective Germany´s fleet is much to strong and able to challenge the english fleet early on for a battle of supremacy on the sea. I am from Germany and I feel honored that the world thinks we had such a strong fleet. But in reality in World war 1 and World war 2 the purpose of the fleet was to be there and hide because they werent able to challenge the british fleet in any significant way. Yes they had submarines to make trouble but that the GErmany can win aginst Britain on the sea without "air support" ugggh...

[foko]

Another wish is the Roads&Supply Topic.

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

@ Sombra:

Fully agreed on the Navy issue... I discussed that topic once with Hubert (I think you posted in that thread also), and he said he wants to maintain the balance.. and the Subs should be a threat to the UK in 1939 and 1940. One way to solve that could also be to make the Kriegsmarine less strong.. i.e. drop one of the Cruiser groups or have the Bismarck coming out of the production queue at strength 5.

[pzgndr]

I think Germany should be able to buy one more HQ.. there are more units on the board, but not enough HQs to supply them.

HQs supply all units in range regardless of how many there are. The supply situation hasn't changed.

However, the additional units in SC2-WaW can water down the leadership bonus provided by HQs. Maybe this could be reconsidered and increased. Or maybe have default command links restricted for the additional special units, to focus on the main combat units. Players could still manually set command links. But, both sides now face the same "problem" so the effect should be neutral. Is it really an issue that needs to be fixed?

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

@ pzgndr:

Agreed... this topic is very low on the priority list.

I still wonder what the exact mathematic behind the Leadership Bonus is.. does anyone have a clue?

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Hyazinth von Strachwitz:

I still wonder what the exact mathematic behind the Leadership Bonus is.. does anyone have a clue?

There is always someone who has a clue... Terif .

[Bylandt]

1. I agree.

What about making them visible to aircraft? Just an idea.

2. Difficult question. Giving the UK extra ships doesn't mean the player will use them for the defence of the homeland. They may be "diverted" to Egypt or used for subhunting. Which creates new balancing problems. The problem is that the UK doesn't have enough incentive to defend the home country at all cost, as Egypt, Middle East and North Africa with 10 MPP cities is a viable option. I think what the patch needs to do is:

- to uncheck the box with the "move of the UK-capital to Alexandria" as a standard setting (it's completely unrealistic to have a new army built and equipped from African resources anyway)

- create a new option "Home Guard units" (or "National Emergency Mobilisation") that automatically raises a few units (with HQ) for placement as soon as a single German is in an amphibious transport within two hexes of the UK.

3. I agree. If Germany wants to spend its MPP's on HQ's, it should be able to do so.

4. Agree. Very good suggestions. But perhaps having some Italian ships start at half strength as compensation. This would have the added benefit that the British might be encouraged to move a ship from the Med to add to the defence of England.

[Ottosmops]

Originally posted by Sombra:

...

2. Regarding Egypt I would like to see a slight change of the map so that the "bottleneck" is slightly more open.

...

Has someone already tried to go south of the Qattara Depression?

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

@ Ottosmops:

I think that is a bit of a problem.. very long way from the Siwa oasis, so even with HQ support many units will run low on supply. Basically I will give it a try sooner or later just to find out. I`m pretty sure that only works against the AI if you start a decoy attack north of Qattara and place the main attack force south.. and you need long range aircraft which can strike both north and south..

(once edited)

[ November 06, 2007, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Hyazinth von Strachwitz ]

[Edwin P.]

1. Italy - I would like to see Italian build limits for submarine units increased by 1, and the American build limits increased as they did not have the losses to men and materials that the European powers had.

2. UK vs Sealion - I find that the UK is strong enough already, the key is knowing how to use your air units to spot the enemy transports and surface navy to sink them. Futhermore, an early sealion means increased USA and Russian readiness.

3. UK vs German Navy - The biggest mistake I see players making is not researching ASW tech, Naval Doctrine, or LR tech for spotting the Axis fleets or building Destroyers. All of these together can make for a most powerful Royal Navy, if the Allied player has the patience to wait and engage the German fleet when he has the advantage.

4. HC mentioned adding a morale penalty when a capital city fell and the capital was moved to another city. I like this idea as it gives the players an historical incentive to defend Moscow.

5. I would like to see the experience advantage give a player's unit a chance to avoid the surprise penalty - as a more experienced unit is less likely to be surprised.

6. Italy is weak, if you don't allow Italy to conquer additional countries. You have a choice, a stronger German economy, or a weaker Germany and a stronger Italy.

[ November 06, 2007, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[SeaMonkey]

1. Already addressed, situation obsolete with intro of AAA units, sure to be patched.

2. To early for conclusion other than UK capital moves to Canada instead of Egypt. Scripts take care of this.

3. Allow German HQs to attach 7 units instead of 6 and buy minor HQs.

4. Italians can take Tunisia and Algeria early unless RN intervenes and takes a beating. Later around beginning Barby they can take Yugo and Greece with a little help from Germans.

Now Italians are viable and can threaten NA and ME with some German help, all this by 42. When Allies come to Africa, Italians can defend by 43.

[ November 06, 2007, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[foko]

I think allowing Germany attaching 7 Units is no good idea, they will become to powerfull. They can gain 2/7 times faster exp than any other HQ can.

And than they are real killermaschines.

Allowing them to buy another HQ, costs more and has not so musch effect on the balance

[MasterChief]

Amphibious landings with the ability to assualt beachs with Marines and other land units. I know it was often mentioned in SC2 threads. Sit a unit on a beach and the beach is permanently locked until you bomb or shell it to death. If he is continuly reinforcing the unit then you will never be able to land. The game needs the ability to make amphibious assualts against beach garrisions.

[Edwin P.]

Assaults Against Beach Garrisons

If implemented I would expect that corps (and only corps) could assault the beaches at 50% of normal readiness.

Perhaps, reducing the penalty by 5% for each turn they spent in amphibious training before boarding an amphibous transport.

Example:

A corps selects mode: Amphibious and each turn while in Amphibious its penalty for its next Amphibous assault is reduced by 5%.

When the corps attacks, it has a chance to force the defending unit to retreat one tile.

[Timskorn]

BUG: Seems like the new secondary attack abilities (bombers, artillery) make the selection circle disappear during the second attack. I'm too lazy to repro it at the moment, but if needed I can do it and send over a save game. I also believe the projected attacker/defender losses aren't displayed at the top either.

I'd be hesitant to implement major balance changes yet. WaW just came out, and unless they are glaring and nearly indefensible (or game breaking), I'd suggest holding off for now until more people play. Part of the fun is figuring out how to defeat certain strategies. With additional options and varying skill levels, some opponents can certainly "feel" like they are unstoppable for this or that reason.

I wouldn't be so quick to say there is no viable option another player can do to counter it.

[waltero]

Too bad there is not a way to upgrade your units while they are in build or just sitting in placement mode.

Is there any way to stop a purchase once it has been placed? Even if it is two seconds after you hit the button?

I wish more than two people could play, even if it were only AI. like if turkey declares war and the computer takes over turkey:)

[Edwin P.]

I would like to see an AI controlled Turkey also, in addition an option for an AI controlled Western Allies or Russia;

Example

Western Allies _ Human _ AI

Soviet Union _ Human _ AI

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

Assaults Against Beach Garrisons

When the corps attacks, it has a chance to force the defending unit to retreat one tile.

What really would be helpful would be a "retreat" battle result like in many wargames (board or computer). In SC and SC2 all units fight till death, Hitler would be proud about so much <s>com</s>passion.

I want a retreat!

[ November 24, 2007, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

4. HC mentioned adding a morale penalty when a capital city fell and the capital was moved to another city.

Why only when a capital city fell?

Think about the shock when Tobruk or Stalingrad fell.

Maybe it would be wise to add a free diplo chit for every conquered major city of fortress?

Clash of steel used "political points", which were very nice to press on a neutral country.

[Ottosmops]

Originally posted by xwormwood:

... Hitler would be proud about so much compassion.

compassion = Mitgefühl, Mitleid

passion = Leidenschaft

[xwormwood]

oops.

Danke!

[Sombra]

After a fw games I would like to ask for some reconsiderations

- Nerf the TacBombers at least why are they so damm effective aginst soft targets too? Please give HQs a higher air defense

- Norway: England cant take Norway anymore without severe "script" /diplomatic consequences . Unfortunately this has been a real option for the the WW2. IF you would like to make it the historical race simply increase the corps in Norway to 8-10... not an easy knock out for Germany and England either both have to work to cature the country if they want it.

- AS the things get worse for Germany this way perhaps lower the research in place by the UDSSR

[ November 24, 2007, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Sombra ]

[John DiFool the 2nd]

"Nerf" not "nerv" (from harmless Nerf toys made of foam rubber).

My wish is that the "Tech Table" be updated for enemy majors upon contact with opposing forces which have the relevant upgrade. Some techs will remain forever unknown- unless Intelligence gives you a clue, perhaps with a question mark after the number.

[Edwin P.]

For intel, I would like to see;

a. At Intel level 2 a report shows you a time-line report of how many chits your opponent has invested in diplomacy, but not where;

UK - Oct - 0 chits

UK - Nov - 1 chits

UK - Dec - 3 chits

UK - Jan - 2 chits

b. At Intel level 3 a time-line report that shows you how many chits your opponenent has invested in research, but not which areas.

Example: USSR - 5 chits invested