French are much to weak

[Liam]

I have a slight feeling unlike SC1, people do not even consider the early game for SC2. It is a given no matter what, "France will Fall..." On top of this there is little to change the historical outcome aside from delaying the Germans, the British do not attempt to interfere and the Axis usually have just two variations, slow and fast takedown..

it could prove interesting to make the taking of France a bit more tedious......and focus less on making other objectives tough......more realistic anyway.

I know historically the Germans lost a lot achieving this goal

[Retributar]

I forgot when France did actually fall???...however i believe that the 'Battle of Britain' was already underway by around June?.

What im trying to say,...is that if any adjustment's are made as to the difficulty of taking France down, then it should be managed in such a way as to then be able to allow a Historical Time-Table to fall within range of where it actually did History-Wise!.

[Big Al]

France is the key to the game. Without France falling the game falls apart for the Germans.

Histroically the French should be a pushover.

Their tanks had better armor and a better gun but they sucked overall. No radios, too few men operating the machine, and the units too spread out to be effective. Simply put the French army pretty much sucked compared to the Germans. The Germans learned a lot from Poland and applied this to the French campaign. The army and airforce were inferior to the Germans.

France should be a push over to advance the game and they were historically.

[Liam]

The French weren't all that bad. Their leadership was awful, their manpower wasn't the best and their airplanes and tanks were equal but not organized properly... They fought bravely considering they sunk their income into the Maginot line and the old tactics of WW1. However in SC2, the real depth of Mobility 1 cannot be felt with Blitzkrieg. There is only a bit better HQ ratings, 3 air, 2 tanks for Germany representing everything... In real truth the slugmatch that France usually is has nothing to do with mobility and more to do with just brute strength...

I think the French felt sort of abandoned by the English, and the BEF really doesn't do anything in game terms on the Continent.. I'm not saying delay the take down timewise but making it more a bloody war instead of other Theatres like Egypt-Brest-Norway-Scandanavia might be an option. Everyone uses those and the British to suck resources out when they were really sideshows... As those suck up a whole year when the Allies and Axis could contend right there...

You are Grand Designer of the Armed forces, no saying you couldn't reorganize things, otherwise game should be over every time in 1943 when Germans run out of steam on the Eastern Front

[Col. Gen. Guderian]

I think SC2 gets it spot on with France. In SC1 it was unrealistically tough taking France against a human opponent. I think it's great just the way it is.

[Colin I]

Agree with Rambo. The French are right, quite big manpower and good armour but with leadership and technology issues that usually prove fatal. the only thing I'd add is variable morale. It seems to me French morale was below average BUT with a high variability. Many units fell apart fast and a few fought amazingly (such as some colonial troops who went up against German armour with nothing). Actually, I'd like to see this as a game feature: there is a random factor in morale for untested units and you don't know the true value until after the first combat. It really worked that way, especially for the shakier armies.

BTW there was poor coordination with Belgians too because the French wanted to fight Nazis in Belgium not France! [Actually they also had a plan too silly to mention to intervene in Finland too]. Understandably, the Belgians weren't keen so didn't cooperate much.....

[SeaMonkey]

I can understand a need to capture a possible "what if" for the French, after all they were a supposedly major power.

Thing is if you do this, then there will be all sorts of ramifications to the game's balance.

You will need different victory conditions and a variable USSR entry that possibly could allow them to be Axis.

The main thing is avoid a WW1 stagnant fiasco and retain the blitzkrieg effect with more emphasis on the naval aspects/Med region.

There is an editor and there are some conditions involved in Fall Weiss that can make the French tougher, but you have to gamble.

Still, it doesn't matter, the Parisians are French Toast.

[arado234]

The french were attacked may10th and by may 20th it was prettywell over.Germany beat them not because they outnumbered them(they didnt)or because they had better tanks or planes(they didnt)it was because the allies were outclassed at the top(except for maybe de Gaulle).The german troops believed they would win and the allied(as soon as the germans broke through at sedan)troops didnt.

IMO the only way to make it more interesting is to have an option(its in Third Reich) where the french choose not to build the maginot line but instead invest in armor.Ive played the option in third reich and the french still loose.

[Guest Mike]

the French collapsed in 6 weeks - only a week longer than Poland.

the German invasion of the low countries started with Luxembourg on 9 May - France surrendered on 22 June (signed the armistice) - it took effect 25 June but had been announced as being sought on 17 June.

the French investing in armour would not have made an iota of difference IMO - their tactics were bankrupt.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yep, "belief" is very strong in a "close match-up". Also, French Army had some serious alcohol problems...they had no desire to fight & die. While Bunta was goosestepping away. Half those Frenchies were Bunta lovers themselves.

[Liam]

I do not think that is true, I think the sentiment was probably anti-German... French and Belgians imposed strict penalties upon post WW1 Germany that probably aided the morale of their WW2 armies. Papa Saying, "Son the British and Americans may have left Germany a mangled Power, but those Frenchies really tore us a part! Jealousy I tell you!"

The Atrocities committed by Germans, in Occuppied territories was not all true... WW1 Propaganda, I'm certian influenced the WW2 image of the Germans. Which was no different than other determined, willed Nationalistic Power... The French probably have it, but also had a huge bout of bad luck.

French Military Doctrine was Old School. Their good leader, was shunned. They were still broke from the Great Depression and were not at all prepared for Armored Spearheads or tactical bombing!

In a few years they'd of fought as well as any other army... as well as the Russians did who in the first few weeks gave the Germans more surrendered and equipment than France even possessed. Just the Reds had more Territory to Give meanwhile the French had a Capitol in the German Eagle's Talon

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Half those Frenchies were Bunta lovers themselves.

[arado234]

Your right liam, revenge is a great modivator.Ill bet der fuhrer was just ecstatic.

[Iron Ranger]

The map is too small to 'see' the blizkrieg of WW2. This is most evedent in France.

[Retributar]

Iron Ranger!!!... EXACTACALLY!!!.

Need more be said???.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I'd hope for one of those double-size map mods after the expansion is released, but it's oh-so-easy to FUBAR game balance (& other things)...

[pzgndr]

I'd hope for one of those double-size map mods after the expansion is released, but it's oh-so-easy to FUBAR game balance (& other things)...

My A3R mod with larger map portrays the operational level better. However, it is a bugger to play and takes more time due to all the additional units on the map. Plus the longer distances means longer computational times for AI pathfinding and such. So be careful what you wish for!

[Iron Ranger]

Remember, SC2 is a STRIGIC based game. The decisons you make on a higher level are what determines the outcome more the battlefield results. IE Diplo, tech, what units you buy and how you buy them. Blitzkrig is a tactial doctrine that was used effictly by the germans in WW2.. not strigic (those would be Hitlers blunders)! On the issue of large encirclments, if USSR was forced to have a forward garrison on the axis boader + didnt know he was going to get the Urals Industral script you would see MORE of such issue's. But since we know histroy and the scripts the allied player turns them to his advantage.. much like the idea of skelital garison of UK.

From what little I have read I think WaW will be more tactically based, and therefore please some of those that posted above.

[SeaMonkey]

That is why I have long advocated that almost every tile should have some correlated worth in MPPs. Then there will be an incentive to defend ones territory, just as it was IRL.

Retreats would be made grudgingly difficult for ones defending national forces with ramifications of depleted production for the home front.

Sure, it may be a difficult coding and present a complication using the map editor, but once it is in, the games credibility factor increases accordingly.

Now to Bill's ATR mod. You want a more difficult France? Well this mod has got it. I'm not sure where the AI is now at as the Allies, but before it was a pretty difficult run for a first time German player.

I expect it is exceedingly difficult now with the WaW adjustments. H to H......I don't know, but I can imagine that it could be a gamebreaker for the Axis especially with the Maginot line as its represented. No way the Germans can go through there without tremendous losses and they can't ignore it as ample French forces reside in its fortifications and on the Germans' flanks.

Completely different from the SC legacy and quite refreshing. Great job Bill.

[ev]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

That is why I have long advocated that almost every tile should have some correlated worth in MPPs. Then there will be an incentive to defend ones territory, just as it was IRL.

Retreats would be made grudgingly difficult for ones defending national forces with ramifications of depleted production for the home front.

I like this idea, with one small change: We could have an intrinsic MPP value only for Road and Rail Tiles. Remember WaW will have roads and rails!

The huge Finish Forests, the Pripet Marshes, the Sahara were all of little industrial value. Not all terrain is equal.

However, Road, Rail and River Tiles would be in places which were better integrated to the national economies. They were also more populated and generally speaking had more industry.

Arguably, coastal and river tiles may also have some MPP values since barge transport was and still is very important in Europe. Still, we should expect developed coastal and river tiles to also have roads or rails. So roads and rails remain a good proxy for industrial production.

[Juergen2SSDR]

I pretty much agree with most persons here, the French were a formidable opponent, except leadership was something to be desired. Morale was extremely low, as most spent time building the maginot line. They bankrupted themselves by building such a fortification, that was historically bypassed by the Germans. Their tanks albit were modern, they were slow, and used poorly. Their aircraft were just coming into fruitation, however most of their frontline aircraft were destroyed in pre-bombardment fashion. Historically the Germans cut the armies of the allies virtually in two segments, and were defeated by modern German tactics.

[SeaMonkey]

So ev, woodlands have no value? And marshes don't produce methane gas. Sand can't be melted into glass?

Alright.... seriously ....not every tile is worth MPPs, but farmland, pastures, and wetlands do have intrinsic values. I do agree with you about the transportation corridors as they would naturally be located in proximity to areas of commerce.

How about the adjacent tiles to roads and railways? Ever hear of farm to market infrastructures? Additionally, tiles concentric with port locations.

Even though resource tiles represent a 50x50 mile measurement there are oil fields and mineral deposits that cover an additional scope of land mass. A little research should unveil the areas that have greater MPP values.

Never the less, do not forget a nation's most valuable resource, its people. There in represents another reason to defend every tile because someone has to pull the trigger, weapons don't operate by themselves.

In the end though, I agree, obviously some tiles would have no value.

[pzgndr]

Now to Bill's ATR mod. You want a more difficult France? Well this mod has got it. I'm not sure where the AI is now at as the Allies, but before it was a pretty difficult run for a first time German player.

Completely different from the SC legacy and quite refreshing. Great job Bill.

Well, in the AI-vs-AI game AAR I posted below a couple weeks ago, France held out until spring 1941! Usually Axis AI is better and France usually falls by Aug/Sep 40. There were some minor glitches with that game that are not normally present. I should have another AAR posted soon that shows better AI performance and a few more surprises.

In my A3R mod a lot depends on how soon France activates, which can affect how many UK units may deploy to France to help slow the Germans. Allied AI puts up a good fight.