Free troops for ALL countries.

[Blashy]

I hope SC will make so countries who are invaded by the Axis will be able to have "free" units.

Meaning, if you have units leave the country or are already outside the country, they would remain in the game for use.

Virtually every country who was invaded by Germany had free troops somewhere, mostly in England.

It only makes sense.

[Liam]

Some yes. Some in Russia too

I wouldn't mind to see corp size Free Euro Unit along with perhaps 1 free French. IN fact, if you evacuate a certian # of French from France to England maybe raising the morale and French belief in the English to 1 Army size in England and perhaps under De Gaulle?

[ev]

What if the Russians take over Rumania or Turkey. Do we get "free" fighters too? Do they joing the Allies or the Axis?

After all, the Russies are Allies. The Finns sided with the Germans because they perceived Germany as Russia's enemy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, so they say. And, the Axis are the ones fighting the Commies, and, furthermore, these are pro Axis countries, with pro-Axis officers and enlisted men in their armies?

Furthermore, say the US invades Spain, there would be Spanish people very unhappy with anyone invading their country. Where do they turn to? Do they volunteer to servce with the Russians, the Germans, or the Italians?

Finally, o.k. we have the volunteers. But there is a cost to arm those volunteers.,, They may bring their guns, but, probably not their artillery, nor anything else. And, besides, the ammo used by their guns may not be compatible with that used by the Major Power they seek to join. So you need to rearm them, much the same way the US rearmed the Free French Units during WWII.

I am not against the idea of "Free" units. But, if we are going to make a fair representation of "Free" units we need to consider many aspects...

[xwormwood]

There were many europeans volunteers fighting for the germans as well.

Free units should be no problem when russia grabbs for turkey or romania.

[Moonslayer]

I also like the idea of 'free' troops but I would like to see these troops returned to their country if it is liberated by their allies.

In the present version of SC the free french units stay as allied 'minors' even after france is liberated... surely this is both unrealistic and fairly easy to change?

Apologies if this has been previously suggested.

[Retributar]

Moonslayer it is not unrealistic in all cases. For example...whatever French forces that left the beaches with the British at Dunkirk later fought in North Africa and eventually Europe right through till the end of the war...well after France was conquered and under occupation.

The same goes for the Poles,...now in other instances...yes i would say like for example when Romania and Hungary fell...those countries retired from the battlefield and no longer fought for the Germans.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Retributar:

The same goes for the Poles,...now in other instances...yes i would say like for example when Romania and Hungary fell...those countries retired from the battlefield and no longer fought for the Germans. [/QB]

If some of these troops were outside the country, I would think they would still be fighting, since they would most likely be under German command.

[pzgndr]

for example when Romania and Hungary fell...those countries retired from the battlefield and no longer fought for the Germans

The Romanians didn't retire from the battlefield. They surrendered and switched sides at the start of the Russian offensive into Romania. The Germans had to fight their way out through their former allies! Not sure if something like this is even possible to recreate in the game. History can be so inconvenient at times!

As for making more free units, yes this will be possible with the new editor. Free French and Free Italians should work well. If we have a UK capital moves to Canada event then the Commonwealth could continue to fight on, so Free British wouldn't be necessary. Free Russians probably wouldn't have any supply sources or means to get out so why bother with them, have more partisans instead. We'll have to see what Hubert wants for the official release version, but players can always experiment with the editor later.

[Raven25]

First thing I'd like to address is that this did happen in real life. On D-Day there were soldiers from all over Europe that were fighting with the British.

Second, is that I think what Blashy means is that if you can get any unit from an allied minor to an allied country that it will not be disbanded when their country falls. If you bring french units to Britain, and france falls, those units in Britain will not be disbanded and are free to fight (reinforcing them is at cost to UK and Allied Minors). Many times I've wished that I could retreat Polish Air Fleet and Armies to UK, to prepare for an invasion. Or capture the Italian Port from Yugoslavia and retreat Corps.

[Blashy]

Exacly Raven.

It only makes sense, no way would these units on Allied soil say "sorry gotta go back to Poland and surrender".

And in SC2 with being able to HQ any allied unit or axis, they would become very usefull troops.

[Moonslayer]

Originally posted by Retributar:

Moonslayer it is not unrealistic in all cases. For example...whatever French forces that left the beaches with the British at Dunkirk later fought in North Africa and eventually Europe right through till the end of the war...well after France was conquered and under occupation.

I seem to have been misunderstood. I totally agree with the above statement and my post had nothing to do with this. What I was saying is that when an occupied country (eg France) is liberated by the allies then any current free-french should return to being French units and not British. Currently you can have both free french and 'actual' french troops fighting side by side in 1944... THIS is totally unrealistic. The free french should become repatriated.

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by Raven25:

Second, is that I think what Blashy means is that if you can get any unit from an allied minor to an allied country that it will not be disbanded when their country falls.

I think that this should vary on a country by country basis, Bulgaria vs France, and there should be a chance that troops of an allied country, or a percentage of the unit, will decide to put down their weapons and go home if they are located in a foreign country when their home country surrenders. Thus you might get a Polish army unit to the UK but only 50% will remain to fight if Poland surrenders (ie unit is reduced in strength by 50% until UK player buys replacements).

[Blashy]

I don't agree Edwin.

That is simply playing with numbers for game purposes IMHO.

There is no way people whose country has just been conquered would just up a leave a safe country and go back into unknown hostilities.

When a country is invaded by overwhelming forces what you usually see is a mass exodus to a neighboring friendly country.

Units from LC, Denmark, France, Norway, Poland, Greece, all the African countries under Axis control, even Yugoslavia, they all had troops in the UK or Allied Africa and kept fighting, the only reason some of them went back was to fight in the resistance and those numbers were minute, insignificant in terms of scale for SC or SC2.

If Canada was invaded and I was in the US, I would not just say "Oh thanks for the hospitality, I have to go back to Canada and be "conquered".

And if their country should be liberated, the "free" troops should remain where they are. Free troops kept fighting on the Allied side and did not go back home once it was liberated.

As for what Moonslayer said. I think in SC2 a friendly HQ will be able to select troops from any friendly unit and support them. Which would make sense.

[With Clusters]

And there is something a bit unrealistic with the Poles flying off their entire airforce to England while still in the fight back home.

I'd be interested to know where the bulk of Allied 'free' fighters came from. Someone mentioned Dunkirk as a source for Free French. But what about others, such as the Poles? Were these units made up from intact Polish (or whatever nation) regular units that somehow managed to get to the UK as an cohesive entity(that seems unlikely), or made up of volunteers who managed to flee their home country (individually or in small groups, I immagine)?

As far as Axis 'free' fighters, they were a different matter. You hear much of foreign SS men fighting to the death inside Germany (mainly because they were likely to be executed anyhow, especially if they came from countries now under Soviet control). How many of these 'bitter enders' were there in reality?

What about pro-Axis 'volunteers'? I remember something about Spannish fascist 'volunteers' going to fight in the East. How were they equiped? Who paid for that equipment? Were any there fascists from other countries 'volunteering' in sizeable numbers?

[Edwin P.]

Blashy,

How many Italians continued to fight for the Axis after Italy surrendered?

Just because a force manages to travel to another country does not mean that 100% will continue the fight after their home country surrenders. They might decide to go home, or they might leave their unit and get a job in their new country and of course, their host country might force them to fight or send them to an internment camp (aka Russia).

I think that it really depends on the country of Origin with the forces of some countries having a greater % to continue the fight and others a lower percentage chance.

[Blashy]

Exacly it depends on the Country of origin and how the "people" like the ruling power.

Italians wanted Mussolini dead, most of the Italian armed forces had no interest in fighting. Same goes for Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania or Finnish troops, they were no friends of the Axis, it was a simple "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" logic.

So in there case I would agree, Italian troops in the Soviet Union or deep in enemy territory did not retreat, either the news was hidden from them or for the most part, there was no way for them to just up and leave, the Germans would have shot them and they were in too deep in battles to simply retreat, retreat where? As I said, Germans would have shot them. These troops could be reinforced but it would be with German MPPs.

For the Allied countries conquered by the Axis, Saying 90+% of the troops outside the country fought for the Allies would IMHO not be exagerating.

[pzgndr]

I think that it really depends on the country of Origin with the forces of some countries having a greater % to continue the fight and others a lower percentage chance.

Right, and we'll have this % factor to fiddle with. Players would be free to make this 100% in some cases if they really want to. But in the case of the ahistorical Free French mass evacuation strategy we see in some SC1 games, which the French would NOT have done, players need to carefully weigh realism versus playability.

[Blashy]

The whole point of that is to re write history.

The french might not have done it, but the player might.

[Arthur Krupp]

all this goes back to manpower availability. As it stands in SC you can use cities you capture to purchase troops with....perhaps "free troops" or the equivelant. However if SC2 had a manpower system then you could merely take the "free" men and add them to your manpower reserves.

[zappsweden]

Saving neutral units is NOT a good idea. It would be like in a poker game where I fold and still get my share of money from the pot. Stakes are needed to encourage more fighting over the terrain.

[Raven25]

No, it's a very good idea, because it's realistic. You can't compare strategic warfare to a game of poker.

[Blashy]

Not only is it realistic, but it did happen. Troops from every conquered country had troops in the UK.

If a player wants to move all the troops from a country that was just declared war on, so be it, the game is about changing history and the Axis get it faster with no losses, so there is a cost.

[Roosevelt45]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Not only is it realistic, but it did happen. Troops from every conquered country had troops in the UK.

If a player wants to move all the troops from a country that was just declared war on, so be it, the game is about changing history and the Axis get it faster with no losses, so there is a cost.

I don't think it is realistic to say that a country would have fully evacuated all troops immediately after the DOW just because the UK told them to.

Would you give up your home and your country without a fight just because your allies wanted you to?

But I do think that every country should be able to evacuate after a while.

[Blashy]

This is about re-writing history, IF that player does so, then that is re-writing history. With all its good and bad consequences.

[Panzeh]

Hungarian troops should get a significantly higher morale when fighting Romanian troops.