ev Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Originally posted by With Clusters: To allow countries to move their units wholesale to 'foreign parts' while thier country is still fighting for its life is not historical fiction, its historical fantasy!... I just can't immagine that... the French send loads of troops to the UK... while still trying to honestly defend their nation! Its not just a matter of "I'm the boss of the Allies (or Axis) now, and they will obey my orders like they were the word of God!". If we want to chuck history totally out the window, we might as well be playing "Nazi Space Rangers vs Super Space Geeks" (or whatever that brilliant Desert Dave quote was!). I agree. Yet one more shot at trying to bridge a compromise: Say on the day of capitulation, all French units adjacent to a port have a random chance of evacuation... unless there is also a German unit adjacent to that port. So, as soon as Paris falls, you either counterattack, or run to the port cities. But the Germans also run for the ports. This is exactly what happenned in 1940... Evacuated units would re-appear after a couple of turns in a random port in the UK, but at reduced strength to account for lost equipment and also to account for the elements of any rearguard and security force left at the port of departure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 To add an historical reference to this thread: The British evacuated over 50,000 French troops to UK at Dunkirk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I like how the Free French are treated in SC1 as these units become Free French only if they make it to UK terrirtory. If you want Free French units in SC1 then you must 1. Move them to a port and 2. then transport them to the UK. This gives an aggressive Axis player the opportunity to conquer Paris and thus destroy these units before they can reach the UK. Often times I have seen cases were the French units make it to a port but are destroyed before being able to embark to the UK as Paris falls sooner than expected. So, as soon as Paris falls, you either counterattack, or run to the port cities. But the Germans also run for the ports. This is exactly what happenned in 1940...Note that when Paris falls to the Axis, France surrenders and the French have no opportunity to launch a counter attack or run to the ports. Additionally, I do think that SC1 should have allowed for Free Brits - UK naval units that would become free brits if they were in a US controlled port when the UK surrendered. As was pointed out earlier in this post you can do this by enabling Free Brits or having the capital of the UK move to Canada if the Axis conquers the United Kingdom. [ June 16, 2004, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ev Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Originally posted by SeaMonkey: To add an historical reference to this thread: The British evacuated over 50,000 French troops to UK at Dunkirk. Yes, but those French troops were surrounded and they could not contribute to the defense of Paris or the rest of the country. Furthermore, my guess is that those men would have been ordered back to defend their home country but for the fact that France fell so quickly there was not a chance to ship them back. I would agree to allow French Troop surrounded in a port city to be evacuated and to re appear a couple of turns later as Free French units in England. ...but, only if they are cut off from Paris. In addition, these units should be subject to some combat loss to account for the loss of equipment and a rearguard dettachment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
With Clusters Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 I do hope in SC2 that France gets at least one turn to try to retake Paris (or perhaps evacuate some units). Of course in SC1, a country's surrender depended not just upon the capitol being captured, but also upon how many units were still in existance. That's why France surrendered immediately, to avoid the Allied player from evacuating all French units to the safety of the UK right from the get go (say, while the Germans are still occupied w/ Poland), making it impossible to knock France out of the game (until the Germans pulled a SeaLion in the face of a combined French/UK defense of England!). I think a solution to all these problems would be to have deployment limits - no French units should be allowed to move to English territory until Paris falls. And perhaps have a time limit (one or two turns, say) on how long the French have to re-take Paris before a surrender (to avoid the French evacuating to their colonies, and forcing the Axis player to hunt them down there, even when all the rest of France is occupied!). I think I'll start a new thread on 'depolyment limits'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven25 Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 With Clusters, don't forget that Paris has a history of surrendering early in a fight. There was a time in WW2 when French artillery was raining hell on a German position, but then they surrendered. Why? Turns out they had run out of bread rations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 It also had a history of holding out through long sieges. Which rather pissed Otto von Bismarck off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven25 Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 My example was much closer to the time frame relevant to Strategic Command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roosevelt45 Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Waaaay too much limits, rules and complicated procedures here. I think that we mustn't forget the simplicity of the game, which made it so playable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norse Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Originally posted by Raven25: My example was much closer to the time frame relevant to Strategic Command. Awwww, raven is trying to pretend that he is a historical wizz How cute. Maybe we should buy him his first historical book? After all, he is interested in history Maybe then his arguments would carry more weight. Tap on the shoulder and thumbsup Raven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Originally posted by Raven25: My example was much closer to the time frame relevant to Strategic Command. Your example also didn't have to do with the surrender of the city. Also, please note the reference to WWI. On June 14, without any reserves to stream out to meet the enemy as in 1914, Paris surrendered and was occupied by the Germans.No troops, no seige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exel Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Please do remember that in most cases the 'free' troops moved to their allies' ranks only after their own country had fallen. Dunkirk excluded (since in its case the French had no choice but to evac or surrender), there's NO way that the French had evacuated any large numbers of their army to Britain before armistice. How many of you would voluntarily admit that defending your homes is a lost cause and flee to another country before the fight is essentially over? Now, I have absolutely no idea how this could be done realistically with the SC engine, but I do know that the current system where you have to evac troops well before surrendering or lose them for good is not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted June 19, 2004 Author Share Posted June 19, 2004 Exel, if it's not right for you, than if you have the option to turn it on or off. Turn it off, but having it intergrated in the engine one way or the other would be a bad thing IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven25 Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Originally posted by Norse: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Raven25: My example was much closer to the time frame relevant to Strategic Command. Awwww, raven is trying to pretend that he is a historical wizz How cute. Maybe we should buy him his first historical book? After all, he is interested in history Maybe then his arguments would carry more weight. Tap on the shoulder and thumbsup Raven </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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